Received: from mail-gg0-f183.google.com ([209.85.161.183]:59202) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V34CJ-0002Ma-Is for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:19 -0700 Received: by mail-gg0-f183.google.com with SMTP id q4sf523850ggn.20 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SzPFdeqIL1WDvU2nIIW3Ws2hqSLg2vXT2NTnr+wXD34=; b=bBouC09xxSCsqagNtK7Dap59EQLr3dQaUhS6rluk1HkNNR0T26E9m8owmhpgqTq4ht a8crc3Ksb3qrV1d40FQpjr6nAOz1hkikvIxql38jiSouMJtzK1H/h0IALcdCGU/6k3ks 1Hi2UoEsxetGw+MTH/u7EvMAjbSP9s09FhL9RiZECDqke7QPn0b8SQ5M/fchydWuSNhZ xHXY2gcO3cTcB4jv5h9hrJYlPEJHuuB/sKj9ZbhMEWTH1v2/hf0xvlLZTzzcadmxVKCf hvte/rr//5aHNLqCWGAlt1I9QB5F0lkaCMkSplbuhtLzUsqgm4/sYehNdk4XUCPxuR29 wmvw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SzPFdeqIL1WDvU2nIIW3Ws2hqSLg2vXT2NTnr+wXD34=; b=KqXKE+mquCzuhh2C3pj2miy3jmdeDzZvwVoTFlCFf8ZFpggajCcNZqwkF1xf6F2ITS Aja0grIHerB9nRwT+N4Ku4sp9cIsnYuG7uu9tuPiYXa9KcfUC+WmH6E3v9XCu8Z0+l4e 73cmvgbHK2tJyW/pSmmFtT0Dkt0QneyCBGxlE+VpeszR+f+uEE16IQGS3nVmHXeTQifn BOtb+xvanshs0qcFerSIhdgSZyaQMhFHCAIPDoEh8+nZTparnx3bYpVHVtA0/mmNIkBa Bz9y4eLKlHhfTwgEfIFDsUbcO370fpV4meg7TYcXmc+WVQFgGnhcinXV9wFyWgPqjbfD /zmA== X-Received: by 10.49.36.199 with SMTP id s7mr1881383qej.17.1374930365545; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.51.66 with SMTP id i2ls127332qeo.87.gmail; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.59.11.2 with SMTP id ee2mr5546779ved.11.1374930365222; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x236.google.com (mail-vc0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gz10si3056759vdb.1.2013.07.27.06.06.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236; Received: by mail-vc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id hf12so1149244vcb.13 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.162.42 with SMTP id xx10mr18807349vdb.116.1374930364102; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:06:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.241.138 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:05:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <12f030eb-5a22-4539-b871-aadcd64dd27b@googlegroups.com> References: <57d7137b-09dd-459a-93af-a0c4c6d05a4b@googlegroups.com> <12f030eb-5a22-4539-b871-aadcd64dd27b@googlegroups.com> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 09:05:34 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: umami taste To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160cbe4f180d504e27debba X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0160cbe4f180d504e27debba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Just add a note to the definition that "gay" is not used there to mean homosexual. stevo On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:41 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > > > On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: >> >> doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual". The first two definitions on >> dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that >> meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English >> speaking populations). >> >> Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate >> "homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that >> they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language. >> > > Merriam Webster agrees with aionys. dictionary.com agrees with you. > But I rely on #lojban IRC chat. If nintadni are confused it's the problem > of the gimste, not nintadni. > (btw, I've never seen "gay" used in the meaning of "merry" except in one > song awkwardly translated into English 15 years ago). > > >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots >>> think gay means homosexual. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was >>>>> written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all. >>>>> >>>>> The *interpretation* of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but >>>>> that's the fault of the populace. :) >>>>> >>>> >>>> ke'u >>>> I suggest this because we already have a registered incident on IRC >>>> when one nintadni thought that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as >>>> well. >>>> This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English >>>> changing. >>>> >>>> If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's almost never used in such >>>> sense nowadays) then the definition should be changed accordingly. >>>> >>>> >>>> (And no one forbids you to translate gimste to "Old English" zo'o) >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, "umami" can also be an adjective in English. All you have >>>>>>> to do is use it that way. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately not all people know what is umami. So I added this >>>>>> awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitly show what I'm talking about. >>>>>> When more people learn about this word the *English* definition might >>>>>> be changed (without changing lojbani semantics). >>>>>> >>>>>> E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the definition of >>>>>> {gleki} from >>>>>> x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>>>>> to >>>>>> x1 is happy/merry/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>>>>> >>>>>> just because one English word completely changed it's meaning. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> stevo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There aren't gismu for all the accepted ground tastes? I'm >>>>>>>> surprised. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> krumami - x1 has an umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>>>> titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2. >>>>>>>> slari - x1 is sour/tart to observer x2. >>>>>>>> kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to observer/sense >>>>>>>> x2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So far so good. But then: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> silna - x1 is a portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of >>>>>>>> composition including x3. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it >>>>>>>> actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly >>>>>>>> speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good you added krumami. That is *extremely welcomed* by me. But, I >>>>>>>> would considering changing the definition to be more in line with the >>>>>>>> others. My proposal: >>>>>>>> krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (...Ehm. You may ignore the above. I actually thought umami was an >>>>>>>> adjective as well in English, since that would be logical. Unfortunately, I >>>>>>>> can't find any proof of it.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Still. I miss the: >>>>>>>> x1 is salty to observer x2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am I missing something? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mi'e la .gusek. mu'o >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la >>>>>>>> arxokuna: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> {krumami} >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> x1 has umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Etymology: Romance [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese >>>>>>>>> [umami] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0160cbe4f180d504e27debba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just add a note to the definition that "gay" is = not used there to mean homosexual.=A0

stevo
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">

On Sat, Jul 27= , 2013 at 8:41 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= ; wrote:


On Saturday, July = 27, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:
doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual&q= uot;. The first two definitions on dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning,= but that meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for ot= her English speaking populations).

Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate &= quot;homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they = do "happy" that they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist= _ evolution of language.

Merriam Webster agrees with ai= onys. dictionary.com agrees with you.
(btw, I've never seen "gay" used in the meaning of "= ;merry" except in one song awkwardly translated into English 15 years = ago).
=A0


On Sat, Jul= 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.= com> wrote:
I'm just saying = that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots think gay means = homosexual.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, l= a arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wr= ote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50= :41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition= was written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all.

The inter= pretation of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that= 's the fault of the populace. :)

ke'u
I suggest this be= cause we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni though= t that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well.
This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English chan= ging.

If "gay" no longer means "mer= ry" (or it's almost never used in such sense nowadays) then the de= finition should be changed accordingly.


(And no one forbids you to translate gim= ste to "Old English" zo'o)=A0


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Of course, "umami= " can also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it th= at way.=A0

Unfortunately not all people know wh= at is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to= explicitly show what I'm talking about.
When more people lea= rn about this word the *English* definition might be changed (without chang= ing lojbani semantics).

E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the def= inition of {gleki} from
x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about = x2 (event/state).
to=A0
x1 is happy/merry/glad/glee= ful about x2 (event/state).

just because one English word completely changed = it's meaning.



stevo


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <gunnar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There aren't gismu for all th= e accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised.

krumami - x1 has an uma= mi taste to observer x2.
titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2.
slari - x1 is sour= /tart to observer x2.
kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to= observer/sense x2.

So far so good. But then:

silna - x1 is a= portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3.

Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this contex= t since it actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we= strictly speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?).

Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I wou= ld considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. = My proposal:
krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2.

(...Ehm. You may ignore the ab= ove. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since th= at would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.)

Still. I miss the:
x1 is salty to observer x2

Am I missing so= mething?

mi'e la .gusek. mu'o

Den tisdagen den 16:e j= uli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna:
{krumami}

x1 has= umami taste to observer x2.

Etymology: Romanc= e [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/o= pt_out.
=A0
=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out<= /a>.
=A0
=A0



--



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. =A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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=A0
=A0

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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