Received: from mail-pb0-f60.google.com ([209.85.160.60]:36611) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V3DWY-0006Oo-FT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:54 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f60.google.com with SMTP id rr13sf965701pbb.5 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6N+wn3he09m+5LbsqjyNjkPfX7YePu+tyJTFVNpBB4A=; b=YLCKWZS7n3saQrHOrw+Yxr2N4qhjJN9XoKaoHo9YS8r88q+s0TxDoTE0M+PKny1Woi IIpC40LJQ3fv5hGYGoG6iypKTbi0efupEh0DudnSQGBM3zCxAPUn05BD+A8Vc4ut7x0n GdCUmYKcbGQt4CcbaK/DmUQRhBVdOxU6SYaw/r07dTO+MOkwJnYy6ZmX5Co/mhX48RNh N2iD6t/dq8L4KwJbKTIdT6ZFFaMcCcnbg1TCK5suol/2YJ0rfzy1SVOPdqdcLRHAQsVn DtXr4aR0qWZ3Hga/179bYSapHMRG3OhuKVcb3Hy47V5XOTEpwBvDvJ76BbtLERa9Y2AZ G+BQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6N+wn3he09m+5LbsqjyNjkPfX7YePu+tyJTFVNpBB4A=; b=DBZZ3FRPwJAwyznomccrZfoCprPARZRnXNrcZb1SfQX3i6V5k6BiPjBfiSx0OECVXt aJwkMnvr6A2gJEKNpqDggR+w+bHSU/yiG2aVmZHnte2S+FVmO0/Oyt16rjDhIPAS93rf U6BRtDAqkkSODAVndM4telXppGLVuHJhcWm0H4l+xlQKwTfB8hWRDMlW0BfkBZAXEnv6 Vbcr7ZSmUebT0hDtQ5YURrUZ1MCyiTuSiMlOZ7Zkw0Lp3/Ai90Amm7YKrvbl7HC+pDn3 Ovcn3hWcbUEal++7O9ICuOqFHQ5TrrUQ/5bmlvx3KPnpxAUYhEmyOqOjnXuWjAVMLNXS nAtg== X-Received: by 10.50.124.66 with SMTP id mg2mr197526igb.16.1374966215650; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.57.105 with SMTP id h9ls933420igq.20.gmail; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.43.173.8 with SMTP id oa8mr36354271icc.33.1374966215197; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x234.google.com (mail-ob0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vn1si1039096igb.1.2013.07.27.16.03.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234; Received: by mail-ob0-f180.google.com with SMTP id eh20so6768111obb.39 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.60.56.166 with SMTP id b6mr15653497oeq.38.1374966214857; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.105.169 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:03:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130727170616.44623a2e@aol.com> References: <20130725021725.3ce55578@aol.com> <20130727170616.44623a2e@aol.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 19:03:14 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] idea: selma'o fu'ivla To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0149d17ad098fc04e2864400 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0149d17ad098fc04e2864400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27 July 2013 11:06, Wuzzy wrote: > > I'd probably define these in Lojban with {x1 se cmavo zo bai .e > > zo ...} and list all the elements + {fo lo lojbo}. The concise > > definition would be be {x1 se cmavo zo bai ra'u fo lo lojbo}. > Almost okay, I would change =E2=80=9Clojbo=E2=80=9D to something which ex= plicitly > refers to the language. Like =E2=80=9Clo banjubu'o=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Clo = jbobau=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cla > lojban.=E2=80=9D. > Your call, but to be honest, I believe this to be unnecessary as cmavo4 is already a language by the definition of {cmavo}, therefore saying {lo lojbo} in cmavo4 must refer to the lojbanic language and not some merely something lojbanic in nature. This gives rise to the following example: "I'm playing a fighting game" translated to {.i mi kelci lo damba se kelci} is considered redundant because you're overspecifying kelci2. Rather than use kelci twice, we'd say something like {.i mi kelci (la'e|tu'e|zo'e ne) lo nu damba} (or the tanru {.i mi damba kelci}). > > I am not sure, but I think that =E2=80=9Cmu'a=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80= =9Cra'u=E2=80=9D would be more > logically here. > {mu'a} is better, I agree. > Here is my example short definition for BAI: > =E2=80=9C$x_1$ se cmavo zo bai mu'a fo lo banjubu'o=E2=80=9D > > .i'e > Additionally, since the =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D selma'o name is so imp= ortant, we > should include it in the =E2=80=9Cnotes=E2=80=9D field: > Notes: =E2=80=9Cla'o sy WhATEVER sy cu drata cmene $x_1$=E2=80=9D where = =E2=80=9CWhATEVER=E2=80=9D is of > course the =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D selma'o name. > > You've made one of the most common mistakes: using la (or one of its friends) in cmene1. This isn't *wrong*, but you're saying that the named-thing is the name. This page jokingly explains this http://www.lojban.org/tiki/White+Knight's+Song+Gotcha > I chose the =E2=80=9Csy=E2=80=9D delimeter for =E2=80=9Cselma'o=E2=80=9D.= Also =E2=80=9Csy=E2=80=9D > can=E2=80=99t be a selma'o name, because =E2=80=9Csy=E2=80=9D is already = in BY. So this > template should work for all selma'o imaginable and therefore is usable > for automation. > Why not use {selma'o} as the delimiter? It's more obvious, for one, Thus, I'd write the notes as {.i zoi selma'o BAI selma'o ji'a cmene $x_1$}. > > > UI cmavlrui > > the [u] in {ui} is a consonant, so {cmavrui} is fine. > But it isn=E2=80=99t a stage-3 zi'evla and I want to start with stage-3 z= i'evla > for all selma'o. It=E2=80=99s just pure luck that =E2=80=9Ccmavrui=E2=80= =9D is at > least morphologically correct, it=E2=80=99s a stage-4 zi'evla. You don=E2= =80=99t have > this luck all the time. =E2=80=9Ccmavri=E2=80=9D (for selma'o I), for exa= mple, would be > a lujvo. And although the =E2=80=9Cu=E2=80=9D in =E2=80=9Cui=E2=80=9D is = spoken like a consonant, in > morphology, that =E2=80=9Cu=E2=80=9D is still considered a vowel IIRC. > > In the old morphology, i.e. the one used by vlatai, the tool jbovlaste uses to determine what class of word something is, yes, it is considered a vowel. But the old morphology is awful for the simple reason that it allows {straeiuaoeiuae} as a valid word. The modern morphology's principal axiom is that every syllable must begin with a vowel. Thus, when examining a string such as {.aui}, does it break up into {.au-i} or {.a-ui} ? The former isn't possible as the second syllable would begin with a vowel, i.e. /i/. (The first syllable begins with the special consonant {.}.) All that being said, {cmavrui} in the modern morphology is a type-3 zi'evla= . > So far, so good. But now I noticed that the coice =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D + = =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D was actually > a bad one. =E2=80=9Ccmavlra=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccmavlri=E2=80=9D and =E2= =80=9Ccmavlrui=E2=80=9D aren=E2=80=99t stage-3 zi'evla, > they are stage-4. Whoops. > > I have changed my mind and suggest this instead: > > If the selma'o starts with a vowel, use the =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D hyphen an= d append =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D > to it and after that the lower-cased selma'o name. So: > =E2=80=9Ccmavrxrui=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr= =E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cui=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 clearly s= elma'o UI > =E2=80=9Ccmavrxri=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr= =E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 clearly th= e selma'o I > =E2=80=9Ccmavrxra=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr= =E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 clearly th= e selma'o A > > You can't break =E2=80=9Ccmavrxrui=E2=80=9D down into =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80= =9D + =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxrui=E2=80=9D and > come to the conclusion that it stands for the selma'o XRUI. Because no > cmavo is allowed to start with two consonants. > Frequently, I see people (primarily anglophones :P ) complain that type-3 zi'evla are hard to pronounce. For me, that generally isn't the case, but here you've really done something awful, zo'o. {cmavrxrui} is *REALLY* hard to say. That's five consonants in a row. Yes, the /r/ is syllabic, which makes it easier, but /xrui/ is *not* easy. My suggestion is to lower the complexity of the consonant cluster, instead using a suffix, namely "vo" from the end of "cmavo", such that: I: cmavrxivo A: cmavrxavo and UI: cmavrui, since in the modern morphology this is a perfectly acceptable type-3 zi'evla. 1) One cannot think that it's selma'o IVO, or AVO as each are composed of two separate words. Furthermore, the presence of the -vo suffix is indicative enough of the fact the /x/, is not a part of the selma'o name. 2) One cannot think that it's a descriptive brivla, since there is no consonant cluster in the first five letters of the zi'evla-tail. So I suggest these new slightly changed building rules for selma'o > zie'vla: > > selma'o name contains =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 use brivla > starts with other vowel =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D hyphen + = =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + selma'o > starts with =E2=80=9CR=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Cn=E2= =80=9D hyphen + selma'o > starts with other consonant =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D hyphen + se= lma'o > Here's my version of the flowchart: selma'o name contains y -> use brivla starts with other vowel -> r-hyphen, x-hyphen, selma'o, vo-suffix. starts with r -> n-hyphen, selma'o starts with other consonant -> r-hyphen, selma'o > Now the =E2=80=9Crxr=E2=80=9D idea is much better than the =E2=80=9Clr=E2= =80=9D idea. It shares the > spirit of the =E2=80=9Cx=E2=80=9D convention (thanks for pointing it out)= because it=E2=80=99s > very similar to it=E2=80=94it's basicly just the =E2=80=9Cx=E2=80=9D conv= ention with an =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D > appended. > -rxr- would have been good if it weren't the source of an incredible consonant cluster (5 in the case of UI !). .i mi'e la tsani mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0149d17ad098fc04e2864400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 27 July 2013 11:06, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
> I'd probably define these in Lojban with {x1 se = cmavo zo bai .e
> zo ...} and list all the elements + {fo lo lojbo}. The concise
> definition would be be {x1 se cmavo zo bai ra'u fo lo lojbo}.
Almost okay, I would change =E2=80=9Clojbo=E2=80=9D to something whic= h explicitly
refers to the language. Like =E2=80=9Clo banjubu'o=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cl= o jbobau=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cla
lojban.=E2=80=9D.

Your call, but to be = honest, I believe this to be unnecessary as cmavo4 is already a language by= the definition of {cmavo}, therefore saying {lo lojbo} in cmavo4 must refe= r to the lojbanic language and not some merely something lojbanic in nature= . This gives rise to the following example: "I'm playing a fightin= g game" translated to {.i mi kelci lo damba se kelci} is considered re= dundant because you're overspecifying kelci2. Rather than use kelci twi= ce, we'd say something like {.i mi kelci (la'e|tu'e|zo'e ne= ) lo nu damba} (or the tanru {.i mi damba kelci}).
=C2=A0

I am not sure, but I think that =E2=80=9Cmu'a=E2=80=9D instead of =E2= =80=9Cra'u=E2=80=9D would be more
logically here.=C2=A0

{mu'a} is bet= ter, I agree.
=C2=A0
Here is my example short definition for BAI:
=E2=80=9C$x_1$ se cmavo zo bai mu'a fo lo banjubu'o=E2=80=9D


.i'e
=C2=A0
Additionally, since the =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D selma'o name is so i= mportant, we
should include it in the =E2=80=9Cnotes=E2=80=9D field:
Notes: =E2=80=9Cla'o sy WhATEVER sy cu drata cmene $x_1$=E2=80=9D where= =E2=80=9CWhATEVER=E2=80=9D is of
course the =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D selma'o name.


You've made one of the most common= mistakes: using la (or one of its friends) in cmene1. This isn't *wron= g*, but you're saying that the named-thing is the name. This page jokin= gly explains this=C2=A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/White+Knight's+Song+Gotcha=
=C2=A0
I chose the =E2=80=9Csy=E2=80=9D delimeter for =E2=80=9Cselma'o=E2=80= =9D. Also =E2=80=9Csy=E2=80=9D
can=E2=80=99t be a selma'o name, because =E2=80=9Csy=E2=80=9D is alread= y in BY. So this
template should work for all selma'o imaginable and therefore is usable=
for automation.

Why not use {selma'= o} as the delimiter? It's more obvious, for one,=C2=A0

Thus, I'd write the notes as {.i zoi selma'o BAI selma'= ;o ji'a cmene $x_1$}.
=C2=A0
> > UI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cmavlrui
> the [u] in {ui} is a consonant, so {cmavrui} is fine.
But it isn=E2=80=99t a stage-3 zi'evla and I want to start with s= tage-3 zi'evla
for all selma'o. It=E2=80=99s just pure luck that =E2=80=9Ccmavrui=E2= =80=9D is at
least morphologically correct, it=E2=80=99s a stage-4 zi'evla. You don= =E2=80=99t have
this luck all the time. =E2=80=9Ccmavri=E2=80=9D (for selma'o I), for e= xample, would be
a lujvo. And although the =E2=80=9Cu=E2=80=9D in =E2=80=9Cui=E2=80=9D is sp= oken like a consonant, in
morphology, that =E2=80=9Cu=E2=80=9D is still considered a vowel IIRC.


In the old mor= phology, i.e. the one used by vlatai, the tool jbovlaste uses to determine = what class of word something is, yes, it is considered a vowel. But the old= morphology is awful for the simple reason that it allows {straeiuaoeiuae} = as a valid word.
The modern morphology's principal axiom is that every syllable mus= t begin with a vowel. Thus, when examining a string such as {.aui}, does it= break up into {.au-i} or {.a-ui} ? The former isn't possible as the se= cond syllable would begin with a vowel, i.e. /i/. (The first syllable begin= s with the special consonant {.}.)
All that being said, {cmavrui} in the modern morphology is a type-3 zi= 'evla.
=C2=A0
So far, so good. But now I noticed that the coice =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D + =E2= =80=9Cr=E2=80=9D was actually
a bad one. =E2=80=9Ccmavlra=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccmavlri=E2=80=9D and =E2=80= =9Ccmavlrui=E2=80=9D aren=E2=80=99t stage-3 zi'evla,
they are stage-4. Whoops.

I have changed my mind and suggest this instead:

If the selma'o starts with a vowel, use the =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D hyphen = and append =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D
to it and after that the lower-cased selma'o name. So:=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=E2=80=9Ccmavrxrui=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr= =E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cui=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 clearly s= elma'o UI
=E2=80=9Ccmavrxri=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr=E2= =80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 clearly the s= elma'o I
=E2=80=9Ccmavrxra=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr=E2= =80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 clearly the s= elma'o A

You can't break =E2=80=9Ccmavrxrui=E2=80=9D down into =E2=80=9Ccmav=E2= =80=9D + =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D + =E2=80=9Cxrui=E2=80=9D and
come to the conclusion that it stands for the selma'o XRUI. Because no<= br> cmavo is allowed to start with two consonants.

Frequently, I see people (primarily anglophones :P ) complain that = type-3 zi'evla are hard to pronounce. For me, that generally isn't = the case, but here you've really done something awful, zo'o. {cmavr= xrui} is *REALLY* hard to say. That's five consonants in a row. Yes, th= e /r/ is syllabic, which makes it easier, but /xrui/ is *not* easy.

My suggestion is to lower the complexity of the consona= nt cluster, instead using a suffix, namely "vo" from the end of &= quot;cmavo", such that:
I: cmavrxivo
A: cmavrxavo<= /div>

and=C2=A0

UI: cmavrui, since i= n the modern morphology this is a perfectly acceptable type-3 zi'evla.<= br>

1) One cannot think that it's selma'o = IVO, or AVO as each are composed of two separate words. Furthermore, the pr= esence of the -vo suffix is indicative enough of the fact the /x/, is not a= part of the selma'o name.
2) One cannot think that it's a descriptive brivla, since there is= no consonant cluster in the first five letters of the zi'evla-tail.

So I suggest these new slightly changed building rules for selma'o
zie'vla:

selma'o name contains =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=86= =92 use brivla
starts with other vowel =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Cr=E2= =80=9D hyphen + =E2=80=9Cxr=E2=80=9D + selma'o
starts with =E2=80=9CR=E2=80=9D =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D hyphen + selma'o
starts with other consonant =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D hyp= hen + selma'o

Here's my version= of the flowchart:
selma'o name contains y -> use brivla
starts with other vowel -> r-hyphen, x-hyphen, selma'o, vo-= suffix.
starts with r -> n-hyphen, selma'o
starts with other = consonant -> r-hyphen, selma'o
=C2=A0
Now the =E2=80=9Crxr=E2=80=9D idea is much better than the =E2=80=9Clr=E2= =80=9D idea. It shares the
spirit of the =E2=80=9Cx=E2=80=9D convention (thanks for pointing it out) b= ecause it=E2=80=99s
very similar to it=E2=80=94it's basicly just the =E2=80=9Cx=E2=80=9D co= nvention with an =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D
appended.

-rxr- would have been good if= it weren't the source of an incredible consonant cluster (5 in the cas= e of UI !).
=C2=A0
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
<= /div>

--
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Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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