Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.233 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.233;
References: <27c9c29f-ec16-418f-acfa-250df563ce67@googlegroups.com> <19228f45-67d6-4e04-ac4f-5a08c1968e48@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1375654350.1349.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2013 15:12:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Conlangery #92: The Sapir-Worf Hypothesis
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <19228f45-67d6-4e04-ac4f-5a08c1968e48@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-334495122-1616507573-1375654350=:1349"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---334495122-1616507573-1375654350=:1349
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, I already responded on g+ but to go briefly again: what they talk abo=
ut has little to do with Whorf at least (it's harder to say about Sapir), w=
ho explicitly rejects relationships to vocabulary and to particular cultura=
l items, referring always to grammatical categories and habitual thought (n=
a=EFve metaphysics).=A0 But what they do talk about is what all too many pe=
ople mean by SWH, often including JCB and subsequent loglangists.=A0 They q=
uite rightly (I think) ridicule much of this, but fail to note that there i=
s more (or different) to SWH that is not affected by the problems of the ve=
rsions they discuss.=A0 Incidentally, real SWH is pretty irrelevant to logl=
angs, Loglan and Lojban spectacularly so.


On Sunday, August 4, 2013 12:17 PM, la gusek. <gunnar_secret@hotmail.com> w=
rote:
 =20
Yeah, I felt that was quite biased. I mean, sure, it's a controversial topi=
c and there isn't much support for strong Sapir-Whorfianism today. But, the=
y do acknowledge certain different thinking patterns (like the way you memo=
rize an describe experiences or knowing which way is north), but they are v=
ery clear with that everything related to Sapir-Whorf is stupid and ridicul=
ous. It seems more of a bashing than a discussion, but that's my five cents=
. I don't believe in Sapir-Whorf as originally hypothesized though.

Also, Lojban is (of course) mentioned. But they are not discussing it very =
positive, and somewhat thinking that it's an impossible and ridiculous lang=
uage to try and learn. Like that they're not seriously believing it could b=
e fun or useful in real life, but a cute attempt of nerds over-believing Sa=
pir-Whorf (and trying to gain "magical abilities"). Laadan seems to be pref=
erred, for some reason.

Yeah, that's what I got from it! Worth a listening, but I do not fully agre=
e with them. Seems too much like a contra-cultural reaction to people belie=
ving Sapir-Whorf to a extreme level and irritating people with the classic =
Eskimo-snow-myth.
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


---334495122-1616507573-1375654350=:1349
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div></div><div><span=
>Well, I already responded on g+ but to go briefly again: what they talk ab=
out has little to do with Whorf at least (it's harder to say about Sapir), =
who explicitly rejects relationships to vocabulary and to particular cultur=
al items, referring always to grammatical categories and habitual thought (=
na=EFve metaphysics).&nbsp; But what they do talk about is what all too man=
y people mean by SWH, often including JCB and subsequent loglangists.&nbsp;=
 They quite rightly (I think) ridicule much of this, but fail to note that =
there is more (or different) to SWH that is not affected by the problems of=
 the versions they discuss.&nbsp; Incidentally, real SWH is pretty irreleva=
nt to loglangs, Loglan and Lojban spectacularly so.<var id=3D"yui-ie-cursor=
"></var></span></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display: block;">
 <br> <br> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york=
, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" s=
ize=3D"2"> On Sunday, August 4, 2013 12:17 PM, la gusek. &lt;gunnar_secret@=
hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<br> </font> </div>  <div class=3D"y_msg_container">
<div id=3D"yiv268129468">Yeah, I felt that was quite biased. I mean, sure, =
it's a controversial topic and there isn't much support for strong Sapir-Wh=
orfianism today. But, they do acknowledge certain different thinking patter=
ns (like the way you memorize an describe experiences or knowing which way =
is north), but they are very clear with that everything related to Sapir-Wh=
orf is stupid and ridiculous. It seems more of a bashing than a discussion,=
 but that's my five cents. I don't believe in Sapir-Whorf as originally hyp=
othesized though.<div><br></div><div>Also, Lojban is (of course) mentioned.=
 But they are not discussing it very positive, and somewhat thinking that i=
t's an impossible and ridiculous language to try and learn. Like that they'=
re not seriously believing it could be fun or useful in real life, but a cu=
te attempt of nerds over-believing Sapir-Whorf (and trying to gain "magical=
 abilities"). Laadan seems to be preferred, for some
 reason.</div><div><br></div><div>Yeah, that's what I got from it! Worth a =
listening, but I do not fully agree with them. Seems too much like a contra=
-cultural reaction to people believing Sapir-Whorf to a extreme level and i=
rritating people with the classic Eskimo-snow-myth.</div>


-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br>
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o=
ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div>  </div> </div>  </div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

---334495122-1616507573-1375654350=:1349--