Received: from mail-vc0-f188.google.com ([209.85.220.188]:33976) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VC6EN-0001sk-A2 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:05:47 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f188.google.com with SMTP id ha11sf77629vcb.15 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:05:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Tsjc65tHGYKDNAKRwoJta+YsHXyLmZBcvQVzx8sItxA=; b=GsS4/miKPX7V/UCDr1wNUFN8Kf7ecXw30sd1BQCHcZoRX03l6XVH1XN/De6GcH9SdQ kSIN0AjM4+qSbjxplLojXy7o1sWafjKGVcV6EPDAANbcgG7T8vZ7Nq3YcMcqKiyj1m2/ rauj+ncmrHPOnMnWopJxsE4JUkGjBSEe1l03qB3itScmo74pn/sUq6G4nf21nCWNdQ6d +iUbuet+SWPI+honI45FkWvU/hSh/1SylzV/LHFJYbBrMN/9+SIBbq/GyJLCORPLFuAN +tqEMS6zmv397MSPl+kLODrqjZAbi/BXXeddre/8rR24Xm+pYit9avRyAVFTmo0ndgau WTdA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Tsjc65tHGYKDNAKRwoJta+YsHXyLmZBcvQVzx8sItxA=; b=RnksHbUcx/3PsXN4MhHczeV2TBj8IoA0hDqs1ZNXy3ijRKHXH4Qqg8/hUBGMl8ESVS v9ITtNfeFU5Poej0dIPiZNKbxad1EDGyHeRhCDkDOjzRPR35bLhE5faxkF0WTkJN+V7C G6aoQapsOuZ4ta/bYnpwK4rb/29U324K1dbdKMnhDNNZvuwbakIS1Q53ZnH5yP7LYtw0 +/3N4p3TsVz6dEWqGzF59YD8poN9ZzUPnq1lrS4W8Ws9lFb4ApoMHTbIRy0jk6Tg1BGU lesLXA6VYGYmpolq6kjfxJqy0xDTs8HGcq6l/cb2UJBMNXLH2zRbASTdN4WnOj4BvgU3 7aQg== X-Received: by 10.49.11.195 with SMTP id s3mr30412qeb.10.1377083132771; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:05:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.119.9 with SMTP id kq9ls617714qeb.48.gmail; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.128.97 with SMTP id nn1mr7916qeb.13.1377083131607; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <943f5a1c-e129-40d8-a8f9-3f5fbfbc641b@googlegroups.com> References: <17dd38f8-c958-473e-be0c-64b115270fa7@googlegroups.com> <943f5a1c-e129-40d8-a8f9-3f5fbfbc641b@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: The Usability Project MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9281_12889761.1377083131124" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_9281_12889761.1377083131124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 8:31:35 PM UTC+4, Dmitriy Remselgin wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:35:34 PM UTC+6, la arxokuna wrote: >> >> >> >> Yes, that's why we imported the content of all old pages into our new >> wiki. http://mw.lojban.org It uses the same engine as Wikipedia. >> So everything that is possible for Wikipedia is possible for Jupiter si >> Lojbanic Mediawiki (LMW, mw.lojban.org). >> >> > Well done! But wiki is good for reference materials. A newbie will be > overwhelmed if he or she tries to use wiki for learning. > > It parses well http://camxes.lojban.org/?text=ti%20nanca%20li%20xa >> > > Parses - yep, translates - nope. > Well, Lojban has it's syntax detached from it's semantics. It's a great step towards machine translation. If you can go further in the direction of semantical translation I can only welcome it. Though camxes is a great step in the right direction, cause it uses > visualization. > > >> So... I assume you can help, right? >> > > Surely. BTW, I'm a programmer. But obviously I cannot do all this work by > myself. It is not an issue of some minor fixes or improvements such as > fixing the jbovlaste web-pages -* it is an issue of a global change of > the way the information is presented and processed.* > At the moment I'm working on new textbooks. One of them is an updated Lojban for Beginners. Another one would be a fork of it in a new direction. Yet another one would be a short addendum to it written for mathematicians and logicians. Another textbook will be a fork of Wave lessons. Another tutorial will use some methods of teaching natlangs. And the last project in this series is writing a bidirectional converter of our reference grammar - CLL (docbook format<=>mediawiki format). Working on CLL in docbook format is actually the most important work. We need a fully documented language. So take a look at it. https://github.com/dag/cll > > The way information about lojban is presented on its official resources > may be appropriate for a small group of men working together, but it is not > if we take into account newbies spread all over the world and even active > "lojban developers". The current lojban project interface (i.e. its site, > textbooks, media, reference etc.) looks like "Hey, guy, there's some > awesome stuff inside, but you must read this big grammar with plain black > text on the background, crunch a heap of mailing lists, and then you'll > certainly appreciate its awesomeness". > Even after reading those mailing lists you'll have to somehow combine them with CLL in your head. In order to make that simpler we first need to finish docbook-CLL. Currently no one is working on it. That's the problem. After finishing it we will be able to quickly update it to match the current state of affairs. > Lojban is really awesome, and it must look beautiful and attractive for > everyone. > > We can add interactive elements, browser applications, games, consistent > learning programs for different kinds of users, we can form translator > teams, add special features for "lojban developers" and even for BFPK if it > will countinue its work... Also we have to remove outdated resources from > main site and store them as history in the wiki, for example. > In LMW (mw.lojban.org) all pages from the old wiki are prefixed with "Old Pages: ". So they are in another namespace. Can there be better solutions? I have a lot of ideas, and *later I will make a detailed roadmap *about > this update. > Sure. Don't forget to include docbook-CLL in it. Without it all the work will stall. > I hope most of lojbanists will support it, but still it is a team work, > and any help will be appreciated, especially from those who have been with > lojban for a long time. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_9281_12889761.1377083131124 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 8:31:35 PM UTC+4, Dmit= riy Remselgin wrote:


On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:35:34 PM UTC+6, la arxokuna = wrote:


Yes,  that's why we imported the content of all old pages = into our new wiki. http:= //mw.lojban.org It uses the same engine as Wikipedia.
So ever= ything that is possible for Wikipedia is possible for Jupiter si Lojbanic M= ediawiki (LMW, mw.lojban= .org).


Well done! But= wiki is good for reference materials. A newbie will be overwhelmed if he o= r she tries to use wiki for learning.


Parses - yep, translates - nope.

Well, Lojban has it's syntax detached from it's s= emantics. It's a great step towards machine translation. If you can go furt= her in the direction of  semantical translation I can only welcome it.=

Though camxes is a great step in the right direction, cause = it uses visualization.
 
So... I assume you can help, right?

Surely. BTW, I'm a programmer. But obviously = I cannot do all this work by myself. It is not an issue of some minor fixes= or improvements such as fixing the jbovlaste web-pages - it is an issue= of a global change of the way the information is presented and processed.<= /b>

At the moment I'm working o= n new textbooks. One of them is an updated Lojban for Beginners. Another on= e would be a fork of it in a new direction. Yet another one would be a shor= t addendum to it written for mathematicians and logicians. Another textbook= will be a fork of Wave lessons. Another tutorial will use some methods of = teaching natlangs. And the last project in this series is writing a bidirec= tional converter of our reference grammar - CLL (docbook format<=3D>m= ediawiki format). 
Working on CLL in docbook format is actua= lly the most important work. We need a fully documented language. So take a= look at it. https://github.com/dag/cll


=


= The way information about lojban is presented on its official resources may= be appropriate for a small group of men working together, but it is not if= we take into account newbies spread all over the world and even active "l= ojban developers". The current lojban project interface (i.e. its site, tex= tbooks, media, reference etc.) looks like "Hey, guy, there's some awesome s= tuff inside, but you must read this big grammar with plain black text on th= e background, crunch a heap of mailing lists, and then you'll certainly app= reciate its awesomeness".

Even = after reading those mailing lists you'll have to somehow combine them with = CLL in your head. In order to make that simpler we first need to finish doc= book-CLL. Currently no one is working on it. That's the problem. After fini= shing it we will be able to quickly update it to match the current state of= affairs.

 
Lojban is really awesome, and it mu= st look beautiful and attractive for everyone.

We can add interactiv= e elements, browser applications, games, consistent learning programs for d= ifferent kinds of users, we can form translator teams, add special features= for "lojban developers" and even for BFPK if it will countinue its work...= Also we have to remove outdated resources from main site and store them as= history in the wiki, for example.

<= div>In LMW (mw.lojban.org) all pages from the old wiki are prefixed with "O= ld Pages: ". So they are in another namespace. Can there be better solution= s?

I have a lot of ideas, and later I will make a detailed = roadmap about this update.

= Sure. Don't forget to include docbook-CLL in it. Without it all the work wi= ll stall.
 
I hope most of lojbanists will support it, but sti= ll it is a team work, and any help will be appreciated, especially from tho= se who have been with lojban for a long time.
<= /div>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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