Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 05:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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In-Reply-To: <20130902084209.GA17067@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
References: <20130902084209.GA17067@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban: it's not for babies.
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On Monday, September 2, 2013 12:42:10 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
>
> So I'm discovering that Lojban is a pretty crappy language for 
> toddler-level speech.  Throughout this, the caveat "it might be 
> different if they only heard Lojban" applies, but that's never 
> likely to happen, so...  The twins are 22 months old currently. 
>
> The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it's not even 
> funny.  It's at the "You really shouldn't try this ever" level of 
> bad. 
>
> Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the 
> difference between {cidja} and {citka}. 
>
> They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't 
> seem to bother them at all


good.

 
> , but uttering it is just *so* hard for 
> them. 
>
> Here are the big issues: 
>
> 1.  Every brivla has a consonant clusters.  Consonant clusters are 
> *hard* for children of this age.  Even when they attempt them, the 
> usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to 
> please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!". 
>
> 2.  OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}.  It freaking 
> ridiculous, people.  I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and 
> *I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments.  {ro le cifnu cu 
> citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable "describing 
> the world" thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to 
> say!  A toddler stands no chance. 
>

Okay, if you are saying that the structure of Lojban is okay may be we can 
do something with the sounding?
You, only you and not anyone else can dictate what Lojban should sound 
like. Period.
Seriously, if this is a live language toddlers must be able to learn it. If 
they can't (but can handle other languages like English)
then it's the problem of Lojban. Votes of others do not count. They can try 
teach their own children if they want.
We all know that the algorithm of creating new gismu doesn't always produce 
easily pronouncable results.

If you still want your tixnu to speak Lojban then the only solution is to 
create better synonyms.

Do you want me to help you?* E-mail me questions, I'll search for better 
sounding every time you need a better sounding synonym.*
Shall we start now?


> 3.  They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too 
> dense.  Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i'e} vs. 
> {.i'a}, and I'm not sure they can, they couldn't emit the difference 
> to save their lives.  They say something that sounds like {.ai nai}, 
> and I literally don't know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be 
> correct/true) or {.e'a/.i'e nai} (which would be amusing imitation). 
>

What about ignoring such cmavo  and replace them with {sei zanru}, {sei 
gleki}? Only one more syllable but better signal-to-noise ratio.


> That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important 
> because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language: 
> Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you 
> get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely 
> different grammatical category. 
>
> The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they 
> choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*.  Even though 
> they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me. 
> They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier. 
>
> This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last 
> 2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable. 
>
> I'm not going anywhere with this, really, and I'm not going to stop 
> speaking it to them, I just thought I should share. 
>
> -Robin 
>


Thanks for sharing. Please inform if I can help you.
Your message touches the most important topic in Lojbanistan, probably more 
important than new version of the CLL. 

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Monday, September 2, 2013 12:42:10 PM UTC+4, Ro=
bin Powell wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">So I'm discov=
ering that Lojban is a pretty crappy language for
<br>toddler-level speech. &nbsp;Throughout this, the caveat "it might be
<br>different if they only heard Lojban" applies, but that's never
<br>likely to happen, so... &nbsp;The twins are 22 months old currently.
<br>
<br>The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it's not even
<br>funny. &nbsp;It's at the "You really shouldn't try this ever" level of
<br>bad.
<br>
<br>Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the
<br>difference between {cidja} and {citka}.
<br>
<br>They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't
<br>seem to bother them at all</blockquote><div><br></div><div>good.</div><=
div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"=
>, but uttering it is just *so* hard for
<br>them.
<br>
<br>Here are the big issues:
<br>
<br>1. &nbsp;Every brivla has a consonant clusters. &nbsp;Consonant cluster=
s are
<br>*hard* for children of this age. &nbsp;Even when they attempt them, the
<br>usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to
<br>please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!".
<br>
<br>2. &nbsp;OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}. &nbsp;It freaking
<br>ridiculous, people. &nbsp;I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and
<br>*I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments. &nbsp;{ro le cifnu cu
<br>citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable "describing
<br>the world" thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to
<br>say! &nbsp;A toddler stands no chance.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Okay, if you are saying that the struc=
ture of Lojban is okay may be we can do something with the sounding?</div><=
div>You, only you and not anyone else can dictate what Lojban should sound =
like. Period.</div><div>Seriously, if this is a live language toddlers must=
 be able to learn it. If they can't (but can handle other languages like En=
glish)</div><div>then it's the problem of Lojban. Votes of others do not co=
unt. They can try teach their own children if they want.</div><div><div>We =
all know that the algorithm of creating new gismu doesn't always produce ea=
sily pronouncable results.</div></div><div><br></div><div>If you still want=
 your tixnu to speak Lojban then the only solution is to create better syno=
nyms.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you want me to help you?<b> E-mail me que=
stions, I'll search for better sounding every time you need a better soundi=
ng synonym.</b></div><div>Shall we start now?<br></div><div><br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>3. &nbsp;They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too
<br>dense. &nbsp;Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i'e} v=
s.
<br>{.i'a}, and I'm not sure they can, they couldn't emit the difference
<br>to save their lives. &nbsp;They say something that sounds like {.ai nai=
},
<br>and I literally don't know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be
<br>correct/true) or {.e'a/.i'e nai} (which would be amusing imitation).
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What about ignoring such cmavo &nbsp;a=
nd replace them with {sei zanru}, {sei gleki}? Only one more syllable but b=
etter signal-to-noise ratio.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<br>That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important
<br>because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language:
<br>Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you
<br>get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely
<br>different grammatical category.
<br>
<br>The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they
<br>choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*. &nbsp;Even though
<br>they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.
<br>They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier.
<br>
<br>This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last
<br>2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable.
<br>
<br>I'm not going anywhere with this, really, and I'm not going to stop
<br>speaking it to them, I just thought I should share.
<br>
<br>-Robin
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for sharing. Ple=
ase inform if I can help you.</div><div>Your message touches the most impor=
tant topic in Lojbanistan, probably more important than new version of the =
CLL.&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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