Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20130902084209.GA17067@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
References: <20130902084209.GA17067@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 09:10:55 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQzF-Pdfs_gPdHJh4KFL2PT-mWQ7+mX2UAV98=rXBpXDw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban: it's not for babies.
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c344f475143b04e5664d91
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--001a11c344f475143b04e5664d91
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

  ka zasti kei cipra .i ro da poi bangu zo'u lo rirni be lo mumei be'o no'u
mi ka'e jungau do lo du'u lo selba'u be lo nanca be li ji'ire cu na jai
frili fai lo nu jimpe va'o lo nu ba'e da verclubau be ra . ie la lojban
vasru so'i zunsna  bakfu .i ku'i la gliban ji'a go'i  .ije la ru'oban go'i
.i ru'a la spaban cu zmadu fi lo ka lo cifnu cu klina bacru ce'u.i
jetnu du'o la'a do fa lo du'u lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu jimpe
cu zmadu lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu bacru. i lo nu le jbocifnu
cu jimbe cu se manci .i do gunka va'o lo banli nandu .i do'o xabju lo
relbau zdani .ije do tavla fo lo mleca bangu .i lo da'i nu fliba cu na spaji


  So, reality check here.  As a parent of 5, I can tell you, that
articulation of almost-2-year-olds ain't exactly easy to understand no
matter WHAT their native language is. And yes, lojban is chockful of
consonant clusters, but so is English.  And Russian.  Presumably Spanish
would be easier for toddlers to enunciate more clearly.  And it's always
true, as I"m sure you know, that kids understand far more than what they
can produce.  The fact they can and do understand it is great, though.  You
are already working with two strikes against you since you are in a
bilingual household, speaking the minority language.  Failure would not be
surprising.

                 --gjeyspa


On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

> So I'm discovering that Lojban is a pretty crappy language for
> toddler-level speech.  Throughout this, the caveat "it might be
> different if they only heard Lojban" applies, but that's never
> likely to happen, so...  The twins are 22 months old currently.
>
> The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it's not even
> funny.  It's at the "You really shouldn't try this ever" level of
> bad.
>
> Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the
> difference between {cidja} and {citka}.
>
> They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't
> seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for
> them.
>
> Here are the big issues:
>
> 1.  Every brivla has a consonant clusters.  Consonant clusters are
> *hard* for children of this age.  Even when they attempt them, the
> usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to
> please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!".
>
> 2.  OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}.  It freaking
> ridiculous, people.  I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and
> *I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments.  {ro le cifnu cu
> citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable "describing
> the world" thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to
> say!  A toddler stands no chance.
>
> 3.  They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too
> dense.  Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i'e} vs.
> {.i'a}, and I'm not sure they can, they couldn't emit the difference
> to save their lives.  They say something that sounds like {.ai nai},
> and I literally don't know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be
> correct/true) or {.e'a/.i'e nai} (which would be amusing imitation).
>
> That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important
> because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language:
> Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you
> get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely
> different grammatical category.
>
> The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they
> choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*.  Even though
> they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.
> They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier.
>
> This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last
> 2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable.
>
> I'm not going anywhere with this, really, and I'm not going to stop
> speaking it to them, I just thought I should share.
>
> -Robin
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--001a11c344f475143b04e5664d91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=A0 ka zasti kei cipra .i ro da poi bangu zo&#39;u lo=
 rirni be lo mumei be&#39;o no&#39;u mi ka&#39;e jungau do lo du&#39;u lo s=
elba&#39;u be lo nanca be li ji&#39;ire cu na jai frili fai lo nu jimpe va&=
#39;o lo nu ba&#39;e da verclubau be ra . ie la lojban vasru so&#39;i zunsn=
a =A0bakfu .i ku&#39;i la gliban ji&#39;a go&#39;i =A0.ije la ru&#39;oban g=
o&#39;i .i ru&#39;a la spaban cu zmadu fi lo ka lo cifnu cu klina bacru ce&=
#39;u.i=A0</div>
<div>jetnu du&#39;o la&#39;a do fa lo du&#39;u lo selylai be lo valsi poi l=
o verba cu jimpe cu zmadu lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu bacru. i l=
o nu le jbocifnu cu jimbe cu se manci .i do gunka va&#39;o lo banli nandu .=
i do&#39;o xabju lo relbau zdani .ije do tavla fo lo mleca bangu .i lo da&#=
39;i nu fliba cu na spaji</div>
<div><br></div><div><br>=A0 So, reality check here. =A0As a parent of 5, I =
can tell you, that articulation of almost-2-year-olds ain&#39;t exactly eas=
y to understand no matter WHAT their native language is. And yes, lojban is=
 chockful of consonant clusters, but so is English. =A0And Russian. =A0Pres=
umably Spanish would be easier for toddlers to enunciate more clearly. =A0A=
nd it&#39;s always true, as I&quot;m sure you know, that kids understand fa=
r more than what they can produce. =A0The fact they can and do understand i=
t is great, though. =A0You are already working with two strikes against you=
 since you are in a bilingual household, speaking the minority language. =
=A0Failure would not be surprising.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gjeyspa</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Robin Lee Powell <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So I&#39;m discovering that Lojban is a pret=
ty crappy language for<br>
toddler-level speech. =A0Throughout this, the caveat &quot;it might be<br>
different if they only heard Lojban&quot; applies, but that&#39;s never<br>
likely to happen, so... =A0The twins are 22 months old currently.<br>
<br>
The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it&#39;s not even<br=
>
funny. =A0It&#39;s at the &quot;You really shouldn&#39;t try this ever&quot=
; level of<br>
bad.<br>
<br>
Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the<br>
difference between {cidja} and {citka}.<br>
<br>
They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn&#39;t<br>
seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for<br>
them.<br>
<br>
Here are the big issues:<br>
<br>
1. =A0Every brivla has a consonant clusters. =A0Consonant clusters are<br>
*hard* for children of this age. =A0Even when they attempt them, the<br>
usually fail; they&#39;ve been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to<br>
please me, but it&#39;s mostly &quot;DEE-bah!&quot;.<br>
<br>
2. =A0OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}. =A0It freaking<br>
ridiculous, people. =A0I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and<br>
*I&#39;m an adult*, with no known speech impediments. =A0{ro le cifnu cu<br=
>
citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable &quot;describing<br>
the world&quot; thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to<br>
say! =A0A toddler stands no chance.<br>
<br>
3. =A0They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too<br>
dense. =A0Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i&#39;e} vs.<=
br>
{.i&#39;a}, and I&#39;m not sure they can, they couldn&#39;t emit the diffe=
rence<br>
to save their lives. =A0They say something that sounds like {.ai nai},<br>
and I literally don&#39;t know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be<br>
correct/true) or {.e&#39;a/.i&#39;e nai} (which would be amusing imitation)=
.<br>
<br>
That last, as latro&#39;a pointed out in IRC, is especially important<br>
because it means you can&#39;t have a baby-talk form of the language:<br>
Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you<br>
get another word, even ignoring that you&#39;re suddenly in an entirely<br>
different grammatical category.<br>
<br>
The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they<br>
choose &quot;dada&quot; or &quot;daddy&quot; over {dirba} *every time*. =A0=
Even though<br>
they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.<br>
They just hugely prefer to use English because it&#39;s *far* easier.<br>
<br>
This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last<br>
2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not going anywhere with this, really, and I&#39;m not going to stop=
<br>
speaking it to them, I just thought I should share.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-Robin<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+uns=
ubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />

--001a11c344f475143b04e5664d91--