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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 10:48:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban: it's not for babies.
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I appreciate (both senses) what you're going through, but don't expect too
much from toddlers. I have a grandniece who just turned two, and while she
is bright and precocious, she still speaks barely more than words, and
those incompletely.

My first son, also bright and precocious, hardly spoke a complete sentence
until he was three, but the words he did say were well chosen.

Hang in there. I feel like the whole (Lojban) world is watching you with
bated breath, hoping it all turns out well.

stevo


On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:

> So I'm discovering that Lojban is a pretty crappy language for
> toddler-level speech.  Throughout this, the caveat "it might be
> different if they only heard Lojban" applies, but that's never
> likely to happen, so...  The twins are 22 months old currently.
>
> The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it's not even
> funny.  It's at the "You really shouldn't try this ever" level of
> bad.
>
> Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the
> difference between {cidja} and {citka}.
>
> They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't
> seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for
> them.
>
> Here are the big issues:
>
> 1.  Every brivla has a consonant clusters.  Consonant clusters are
> *hard* for children of this age.  Even when they attempt them, the
> usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to
> please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!".
>
> 2.  OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}.  It freaking
> ridiculous, people.  I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and
> *I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments.  {ro le cifnu cu
> citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable "describing
> the world" thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to
> say!  A toddler stands no chance.
>
> 3.  They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too
> dense.  Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i'e} vs.
> {.i'a}, and I'm not sure they can, they couldn't emit the difference
> to save their lives.  They say something that sounds like {.ai nai},
> and I literally don't know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be
> correct/true) or {.e'a/.i'e nai} (which would be amusing imitation).
>
> That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important
> because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language:
> Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you
> get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely
> different grammatical category.
>
> The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they
> choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*.  Even though
> they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.
> They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier.
>
> This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last
> 2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable.
>
> I'm not going anywhere with this, really, and I'm not going to stop
> speaking it to them, I just thought I should share.
>
> -Robin
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I appreciate (both senses) what you&#39;re going through, =
but don&#39;t expect too much from toddlers. I have a grandniece who just t=
urned two, and while she is bright and precocious, she still speaks barely =
more than words, and those incompletely.=A0<div>

<br></div><div>My first son, also bright and precocious, hardly spoke a com=
plete sentence until he was three, but the words he did say were well chose=
n.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Hang in there. I feel like the whole (Lojban=
) world is watching you with bated breath, hoping it all turns out well.=A0=
</div>

<div><br></div><div>stevo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Robin Lee Powell <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So I&#39;m discovering that Lojban is a pret=
ty crappy language for<br>
toddler-level speech. =A0Throughout this, the caveat &quot;it might be<br>
different if they only heard Lojban&quot; applies, but that&#39;s never<br>
likely to happen, so... =A0The twins are 22 months old currently.<br>
<br>
The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it&#39;s not even<br=
>
funny. =A0It&#39;s at the &quot;You really shouldn&#39;t try this ever&quot=
; level of<br>
bad.<br>
<br>
Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the<br>
difference between {cidja} and {citka}.<br>
<br>
They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn&#39;t<br>
seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for<br>
them.<br>
<br>
Here are the big issues:<br>
<br>
1. =A0Every brivla has a consonant clusters. =A0Consonant clusters are<br>
*hard* for children of this age. =A0Even when they attempt them, the<br>
usually fail; they&#39;ve been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to<br>
please me, but it&#39;s mostly &quot;DEE-bah!&quot;.<br>
<br>
2. =A0OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}. =A0It freaking<br>
ridiculous, people. =A0I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and<br>
*I&#39;m an adult*, with no known speech impediments. =A0{ro le cifnu cu<br=
>
citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable &quot;describing<br>
the world&quot; thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to<br>
say! =A0A toddler stands no chance.<br>
<br>
3. =A0They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too<br>
dense. =A0Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i&#39;e} vs.<=
br>
{.i&#39;a}, and I&#39;m not sure they can, they couldn&#39;t emit the diffe=
rence<br>
to save their lives. =A0They say something that sounds like {.ai nai},<br>
and I literally don&#39;t know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be<br>
correct/true) or {.e&#39;a/.i&#39;e nai} (which would be amusing imitation)=
.<br>
<br>
That last, as latro&#39;a pointed out in IRC, is especially important<br>
because it means you can&#39;t have a baby-talk form of the language:<br>
Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you<br>
get another word, even ignoring that you&#39;re suddenly in an entirely<br>
different grammatical category.<br>
<br>
The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they<br>
choose &quot;dada&quot; or &quot;daddy&quot; over {dirba} *every time*. =A0=
Even though<br>
they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.<br>
They just hugely prefer to use English because it&#39;s *far* easier.<br>
<br>
This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last<br>
2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not going anywhere with this, really, and I&#39;m not going to stop=
<br>
speaking it to them, I just thought I should share.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-Robin<br>
<br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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