Received: from mail-qe0-f56.google.com ([209.85.128.56]:46049) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VGWuR-00041K-3F for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:29 -0700 Received: by mail-qe0-f56.google.com with SMTP id b4sf144067qen.1 for ; Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=r7nhidRH08BWTBCTw0vJgQp59yQDVyOUzyFcT579ABE=; b=fHg9sgh0Mqvu74N0SzaGDM2kaE+gYA4iqp1HcuA7dOwkLQWrwyaSx3scM/TuijEagO twVEQlRnPv4ICCz1xyithMern9FnQs0PlZbHLKnbDja8ZHC2+au2xtBUEGb8lrdu1c3N R/nsygRP5KkY159Ko2NxUfYQI9qMYSBdmrnWBEWOKhteUJgyyOwhhGRDqHenr7SIE97G BDnAXXW36Q7Pvn1USUG3tvjNS3i9kvqg+OK1pU6fI0YJWa6rYJc99RcKDwTogoVqurbl 6beVh+Hvoqjc2knegj2BWXcNku76C30fev08i6YF1gKXudzotPMzggo1b30Xbv7BvahV 5FDA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=r7nhidRH08BWTBCTw0vJgQp59yQDVyOUzyFcT579ABE=; b=W4y8rSC5x5uiwcI2LvambfThuXLFJU9X948xWTRK7T7jdguo/CluPyNSWXF4iBuJiI xioRoQHlwc9ZfsFGR/AN3eKML5aoDI2NU2qMD2//hFeyTal+AFxQWik2UCThl17DlPtH PGEElaBihryDlip/9VMwOaKuF23gAySQ475Xgm42iMgly/WFX+vxSdEs7aZ2o+TKb1zT 07iifRLcA39GYfx3WjsRVTQFIDaa9ws16Prcq+JpmLx5A+2jaEXxSVcA9ByyqVuQvCOY 3h1b55J6DBwdBK37tr/jWXPJGfP/TCmMjH4J0JrTHrEX9vSX0vmOwcr4RW5zpPpqm+u3 DibA== X-Received: by 10.49.25.83 with SMTP id a19mr1024059qeg.1.1378138996707; Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.70.228 with SMTP id p4ls2374167qeu.43.gmail; Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.14.170 with SMTP id q10mr1056279qec.5.1378138996273; Mon, 02 Sep 2013 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <781aac02-fa6f-418c-a976-b123bf0d84b6@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20130902084209.GA17067@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban: it's not for babies. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_174_26499947.1378138995898" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_174_26499947.1378138995898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, September 2, 2013 5:10:55 PM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: > > ka zasti kei cipra .i ro da poi bangu zo'u lo rirni be lo mumei be'o > no'u mi ka'e jungau do lo du'u lo selba'u be lo nanca be li ji'ire cu na > jai frili fai lo nu jimpe va'o lo nu ba'e da verclubau be ra . ie la lojban > vasru so'i zunsna bakfu .i ku'i la gliban ji'a go'i .ije la ru'oban go'i > .i ru'a la spaban cu zmadu fi lo ka lo cifnu cu klina bacru ce'u.i > jetnu du'o la'a do fa lo du'u lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu jimpe > cu zmadu lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu bacru. i lo nu le jbocifnu > cu jimbe cu se manci .i do gunka va'o lo banli nandu .i do'o xabju lo > relbau zdani .ije do tavla fo lo mleca bangu .i lo da'i nu fliba cu na spaji > > > mi jinvi lodu'u la camgusmis cu cusku losedu'u lo ni lo jbocifnu cu jbocre cu mleca lo ni jy glicre iseki'ubo mi pu stidi lo nu stika la banjubu'o So, reality check here. As a parent of 5, I can tell you, that > articulation of almost-2-year-olds ain't exactly easy to understand no > matter WHAT their native language is. And yes, lojban is chockful of > consonant clusters, but so is English. And Russian. Presumably Spanish > would be easier for toddlers to enunciate more clearly. And it's always > true, as I"m sure you know, that kids understand far more than what they > can produce. The fact they can and do understand it is great, though. You > are already working with two strikes against you since you are in a > bilingual household, speaking the minority language. Failure would not be > surprising. > I guess Robin was talking about the level of his children proficiency in Lojban was higher than that of in English. That's why I suggested tuning lojban. > --gjeyspa > > > > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org > wrote: > >> So I'm discovering that Lojban is a pretty crappy language for >> toddler-level speech. Throughout this, the caveat "it might be >> different if they only heard Lojban" applies, but that's never >> likely to happen, so... The twins are 22 months old currently. >> >> The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it's not even >> funny. It's at the "You really shouldn't try this ever" level of >> bad. >> >> Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the >> difference between {cidja} and {citka}. >> >> They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't >> seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for >> them. >> >> Here are the big issues: >> >> 1. Every brivla has a consonant clusters. Consonant clusters are >> *hard* for children of this age. Even when they attempt them, the >> usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to >> please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!". >> >> 2. OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}. It freaking >> ridiculous, people. I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and >> *I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments. {ro le cifnu cu >> citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable "describing >> the world" thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to >> say! A toddler stands no chance. >> >> 3. They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too >> dense. Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i'e} vs. >> {.i'a}, and I'm not sure they can, they couldn't emit the difference >> to save their lives. They say something that sounds like {.ai nai}, >> and I literally don't know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be >> correct/true) or {.e'a/.i'e nai} (which would be amusing imitation). >> >> That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important >> because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language: >> Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you >> get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely >> different grammatical category. >> >> The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they >> choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*. Even though >> they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me. >> They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier. >> >> This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last >> 2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable. >> >> I'm not going anywhere with this, really, and I'm not going to stop >> speaking it to them, I just thought I should share. >> >> -Robin >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_174_26499947.1378138995898 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Monday, September 2, 2013 5:10:55 PM UTC+4, gej= yspa wrote:
  ka zasti kei cipra .i ro da poi bangu zo'u lo rirni be lo mumei b= e'o no'u mi ka'e jungau do lo du'u lo selba'u be lo nanca be li ji'ire cu n= a jai frili fai lo nu jimpe va'o lo nu ba'e da verclubau be ra . ie la lojb= an vasru so'i zunsna  bakfu .i ku'i la gliban ji'a go'i  .ije la = ru'oban go'i .i ru'a la spaban cu zmadu fi lo ka lo cifnu cu klina bacru ce= 'u.i 
jetnu du'o la'a do fa lo du'u lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu j= impe cu zmadu lo selylai be lo valsi poi lo verba cu bacru. i lo nu le jboc= ifnu cu jimbe cu se manci .i do gunka va'o lo banli nandu .i do'o xabju lo = relbau zdani .ije do tavla fo lo mleca bangu .i lo da'i nu fliba cu na spaj= i



mi jin= vi lodu'u la camgusmis cu cusku losedu'u lo ni lo jbocifnu cu jbocre cu mle= ca lo ni jy glicre iseki'ubo mi pu stidi lo nu stika la banjubu'o

  So, reality check here.  As a parent of 5, I can tell you, t= hat articulation of almost-2-year-olds ain't exactly easy to understand no = matter WHAT their native language is. And yes, lojban is chockful of conson= ant clusters, but so is English.  And Russian.  Presumably Spanis= h would be easier for toddlers to enunciate more clearly.  And it's al= ways true, as I"m sure you know, that kids understand far more than what th= ey can produce.  The fact they can and do understand it is great, thou= gh.  You are already working with two strikes against you since you ar= e in a bilingual household, speaking the minority language.  Failure w= ould not be surprising. 

I= guess Robin was talking about the level of his children proficiency in Loj= ban was higher than that of in English. That's why I suggested tuning lojba= n.


               =  --gjeyspa




On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
So I'm discovering that Lojban is a pretty c= rappy language for
toddler-level speech.  Throughout this, the caveat "it might be
different if they only heard Lojban" applies, but that's never
likely to happen, so...  The twins are 22 months old currently.

The phonology of Lojban is *so* hard for toddlers that it's not even
funny.  It's at the "You really shouldn't try this ever" level of
bad.

Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the
difference between {cidja} and {citka}.

They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't
seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for
them.

Here are the big issues:

1.  Every brivla has a consonant clusters.  Consonant clusters ar= e
*hard* for children of this age.  Even when they attempt them, the
usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to
please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!".

2.  OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}.  It freaking
ridiculous, people.  I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and
*I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments.  {ro le cifnu cu
citka le cifnu cidja}, which is an entirely reasonable "describing
the world" thing for me to say to the jbocifnu, is hard as hell to
say!  A toddler stands no chance.

3.  They can easily say many cmavo, but cmavo space is *way* too
dense.  Even if they can tell the difference when *I* say {.i'e} vs. {.i'a}, and I'm not sure they can, they couldn't emit the difference
to save their lives.  They say something that sounds like {.ai nai}, and I literally don't know if they mean {.au nai} (which would be
correct/true) or {.e'a/.i'e nai} (which would be amusing imitation).

That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important
because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language:
Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you
get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely
different grammatical category.

The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they
choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*.  Even though
they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.
They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier.

This is starting to shift slightly (and I mean, like, in the last
2-3 days), but the difference is still palpable.

I'm not going anywhere with this, really, and I'm not going to stop
speaking it to them, I just thought I should share.

-Robin

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
------=_Part_174_26499947.1378138995898--