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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 11:58:14 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQxYysXerL6vuOUGu-FYb71M5_wVknoVOAKYbVmddfViQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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(warning, boring Jewish stuff ahead)

On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:

> On Monday, September 23, 2013 15:17:26 Michael Turniansky wrote:
> >   So... wondering why you use pricaio and not "pruci-", in keeping with
> the
> > Aramaic/Hebrew whence it comes.
>
> It's "prisha" in Aramaic. Some words, such as some participles, have "-u-"
> in
> Hebrew and "-i-" in Aramaic.
>

     Maybe in Palestinian Aramaic of NT times(?  But I don't know. what's
your source?)  But not in Talmudic Aramaic.  It's still -u-.  See for
example, Kiddushin, 66a ( http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=2758&size=3 )
in the middle column, middle of the line that's one line below where it
says "Mai" in big letters on the left column.

  "Prisha" in Talmudic Aramaic means "separated", but is not used as the
name of the sect.
  (And since they self-defined the term, we should respect their use ;-) )


> >   Sidenote -- interesting that he uses the metaphor of walking on a
> hidden
> > grave, since the whole import of that is the laws of tumah (ritual
> > impurity) (walking over a buried person imparts tumah which is very
> > difficult to get rid of, and a cohen (priest) is not allowed to do it at
> > all, and others would be forbidden in engaging in certain ritual acts
> while
> > in this state.  But since J often makes a point of downplaying the whole
> > purity system (and upbraiding the Pharisees for their rigid adherence to
> > it), it seems a strange metaphor to use.
>
> Is tumah from walking over a buried person by a lo-cohen in the written
> Torah,
> or is it a taqanah or fence or something?
>

  Well, of course the laws of tuma are very complicated, but, yes, in
general, anything that renders one person tamei ("impure") would render all
people tamei in the same way, although the implications for a cohen are are
different (there are certain sacrifices which they can't eat while tamei,
for example, which the general populace can never eat.  And, as mentioned
previously, they are specifically forbidden to become tamei), but everyone
must be tahor ("pure") to go to the Temple in Jerusalem, for example.
 Tumat meit (tumah from a corpse) is particularly "sticky" and can only be
removed via the ashes of the red heifer (Num. chap 19) As for the actual
law about walking above a body, I think it might be related to tumas ohel
(being under the same roof as a corpse, ibid 19:14), ju'ocu'i


>
> mi tatpi lo nu zukti so'ida .i le ckana bene'i le bu'uzda cu denpa tu'a mi
>

xu do  skudji zo zukte
                             --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr">(warning, boring Jewish stuff ahead)=A0<div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:52 P=
M, Pierre Abbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org" =
target=3D"_blank">phma@bezitopo.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Monday, September 23, 2013 15:17:26 M=
ichael Turniansky wrote:<br>

&gt; =A0 So... wondering why you use pricaio and not &quot;pruci-&quot;, in=
 keeping with the<br>
&gt; Aramaic/Hebrew whence it comes.<br>
<br>
</div>It&#39;s &quot;prisha&quot; in Aramaic. Some words, such as some part=
iciples, have &quot;-u-&quot; in<br>
Hebrew and &quot;-i-&quot; in Aramaic.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
=A0 =A0 =A0Maybe in Palestinian Aramaic of NT times(? =A0But I don&#39;t kn=
ow. what&#39;s your source?) =A0But not in Talmudic Aramaic. =A0It&#39;s st=
ill -u-. =A0See for example, Kiddushin, 66a (=A0<a href=3D"http://images.e-=
daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=3D2758&amp;size=3D3">http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.a=
sp?ID=3D2758&amp;size=3D3</a>=A0) in the middle column, middle of the line =
that&#39;s one line below where it says &quot;Mai&quot; in big letters on t=
he left column.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0 &quot;Prisha&quot; in Talmudic Aramaic means &quot;=
separated&quot;, but is not used as the name of the sect.</div><div>=A0 (An=
d since they self-defined the term, we should respect their use ;-) )</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; =A0 Sidenote -- interesting that he uses the metaphor of walking on a =
hidden<br>
&gt; grave, since the whole import of that is the laws of tumah (ritual<br>
&gt; impurity) (walking over a buried person imparts tumah which is very<br=
>
&gt; difficult to get rid of, and a cohen (priest) is not allowed to do it =
at<br>
&gt; all, and others would be forbidden in engaging in certain ritual acts =
while<br>
&gt; in this state. =A0But since J often makes a point of downplaying the w=
hole<br>
&gt; purity system (and upbraiding the Pharisees for their rigid adherence =
to<br>
&gt; it), it seems a strange metaphor to use.<br>
<br>
</div>Is tumah from walking over a buried person by a lo-cohen in the writt=
en Torah,<br>
or is it a taqanah or fence or something?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>=A0 Well, of course the laws of tuma are very complicated, but, yes, in =
general, anything that renders one person tamei (&quot;impure&quot;) would =
render all people tamei in the same way, although the implications for a co=
hen are are different (there are certain sacrifices which they can&#39;t ea=
t while tamei, for example, which the general populace can never eat. =A0An=
d, as mentioned previously, they are specifically forbidden to become tamei=
), but everyone must be tahor (&quot;pure&quot;) to go to the Temple in Jer=
usalem, for example. =A0Tumat meit (tumah from a corpse) is particularly &q=
uot;sticky&quot; and can only be removed via the ashes of the red heifer (N=
um. chap 19) As for the actual law about walking above a body, I think it m=
ight be related to tumas ohel (being under the same roof as a corpse, ibid =
19:14), ju&#39;ocu&#39;i=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
mi tatpi lo nu zukti so&#39;ida .i le ckana bene&#39;i le bu&#39;uzda cu de=
npa tu&#39;a mi<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>xu do =A0skudji zo zukt=
e</div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--ge=
jyspa</div><div><br></div></div>
</div></div></div>

<p></p>

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