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[216.109.115.213]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bc1si6183336qcb.1.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.213 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.213; Received: from [66.196.81.156] by nm26.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2013 20:52:02 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.139] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2013 20:52:02 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2013 20:52:02 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 610493.70198.bm@omp1015.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77044 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Sep 2013 20:52:02 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: f9pt6aEVM1l1Mv0h6.Cfrvmr.qgSbsPcfVazYAsu6amiX6h B5ArSRx0OqgQIt2Y3xSY1tqvXxwHyUGdeqwJtlTVavXqssmYr8jP3Ms03UO9 IgIDtFPbRGXjTahnQZ7t8lXB1mk10mE1yxdfmlt5IxguWZK70mzV_Vr4V8__ CIC6bvDwX9r17LDPIUUASD7dUEOpiPU3Mf9wUgT9c7Wphu_k3pcuvCLSFFSQ dvBcjwm4qoQdN5MkA0cpGj4qOE8C1idAx6dwYLFI4uvUQLHlXpy1yUVI9X0G 2uGkenxnWChD1en9dJWMojzuWjeOua4akDnegdbfQ84_wQNJrd21.yUIHK7F HEtYkh0ukHhUAN21.WdNZKG9JP26gbxLyx.b4Zf3scMt0ZXbexL6w1FrVIyy 548Wk5tYtyet_cuLkoJEB0Ski.37wuFkGbJT9h_RGZUvXa8DhkyN9RiZP7jm Au6abA0XppRMsLKueCLHmHro8axs6Qldr_aCfmU_R5NQlmfwMJ1v4VAaa__X LUAqUmAcLrsaKrJCMhY3hip1E7.zkBNOG.Imxz29J56mDe2PyQcDbIl.Blvx UuYZOIJHQ2Wyqy6H4DMRXBEAJVT4gRjBRPuiXiQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:52:02 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,CgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCgpJIGhvcGUgdGhlIFJ1c3NpYW4gaXMgYmV0dGVyLCBzaW5jZSB0aGUKRW5nbGlzaCBpcyBvZnRlbiBjb25mdXNpbmcg4oCTIGFtYmlndW91cyBhdCBsZWFzdCwgY29udHJhZGljdG9yeQpvY2Nhc2lvbmFsbHkuICBIZXJld2l0aCBhIHN0YWIgYXQgc3lzdGVtYXRpemluZyBtYW55IG9mIHRoZXNlIGl0ZW1zIOKAkwphbmQgYSBmZXcgbW9yZS4KClRlbnNlIHByb3Blcmx5IHNwZWFraW5nOiB0aGUgcmVmZXJlbmNlCm1vbWVudCBwbGFjZWQgd2l0aCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.157.561 References: <7482b9e4-62a2-479f-8fe7-9be930d3bd7e@googlegroups.com> <83d9ce25-b95a-44ce-a838-9f213a3df5e3@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1380142322.46121.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: translation challenge To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.213 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1412092350-510639058-1380142322=:46121" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---1412092350-510639058-1380142322=:46121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________ I hope the Russian is better, since the English is often confusing =96 ambiguous at least, contradictory occasionally. Herewith a stab at systematizing many of these items =96 and a few more. Tense properly speaking: the reference moment placed with respect to the moment of speech and the event placed with respect to the reference moment. Lojban =96 and every other language I know of =96 is defective in forms for this and collapses various distinctions. Lojban has only does not distinguish the two relations, reference/speech and reference/event, as a rule, except by implication. Thus, {pu} may be either past tense (RP) or present retrospective (P-), On the other hand, more complicated (though often more opaque) tense forms are possible: {pupupu}, which exceeds normal tense capabilities (though {pu fu fu} does not).=20 More or less from past to future: RP- RP RP0 RP+ (recalled) {pupu. pu, pu, puba} RAP- RAP RAP0 RAP+ (recalled anticipated) {pubapu, puba, puba, pubaba} P- P P0 P+ {pu, ca, ca, ba} AP- AP AP0 AP+ (anticipated) {bapu, ba, ba, baba} The vectorless forms seem to correspond loosely the notion (which is not normally tense nor aspect) of a perfective form, used without explicit mention of a temporal context other than the axis (reference). Many familiar languages (well, to me anyhow) use use some A forms for subjunctives, to the delight of certain tense logicians.=20 Contour aspect: the reference moment placed with respect to the progress of the event described.=20 Inchoative: before the beginning but the event =93present in its causes=94 as it were maybe a state or process or activity, typically a process building to {pu'o}=20 (related to +vector) Initiative: at the beginning, strictly an achievement, but taken with a bit before and a bit after as an enduring event, though not aspectually. {co'a} Continuative/progressive: event goes on on either side of the reference point {ca'o) (related to 0vector) Perfect: after the event is over but the effects linger =93present in its effects=94 {ba'o} (related to -vector) Three stoppings, all strictly achievements but, when possible (i.e. when lexical not inflectional) extended to both sides: Completive: (for processes only, strictly speaking) event finished. {mo'u} Cessitive: stopped, no commitment to take up again {co'u}=20 Pausitive: stopped but to be taken up (may not be, of course) {de'a} and so Resumptive: taking up again, even if not committed to {di'a} Superfective: event continuing after its natural end {za'o} Distributive 'aspect'; For events that may recur, how their recurrences are distributed in time (I suppose there should be an infactive for an event that doesn't occur at all, but we start with) Semelfactive: occurs only once {paroi} Recurrent: occurs PA times {Paroi} individual occurrences are ordered by {PA re'u} Recurrences may be Regular {di'i} in some sense and in particular: Continuous {ru'i} Habitual {ta'e} Typical {na'o} And now we are clearly a long way from where we started. I am not at all sure what to do with the rest of the items on the cited list. As I have said, perfective seems to be incompatible with contour aspects, which imply that the event described has a beginning middle and end. Tense, however, do allow events to be collapsed to points. In any case, Lojban does appear to have a marker for this notion {co'i}, though th4 example is fairly obscure.=20 Telic, momentane, and stative seem to be just the defining properties of processes, achievements and states rather than added features applicable across the board.=20 Instantaneous and punctual also appear to belong here =96 for achievements again, Maybe imperfective in the sense here (separate from perfective apparently) is characteristic of activities. Retrospective and prospective are =96 and + vectors or perfect and inchoative aspect but outside their proper systems, with some distinctions between processes and activities and states. The next cluster seems to be refinements of distributive aspect, including special cases for sifferent kinds of events, again. So of these may be event-internal distinctions (which I tend to think of as lexical), the one blow of =93hit' and the repated blows of =93beat=94, for example, but I am not sure which of these is meant to be this and which is meant to be about one or several occasions (distribution). The point of the next group also escapes me: experiential doesn't fit anywhere and accidental and intentional contrast but seemingly in a lexical way (defective seems to fit in here to =96 and where then is attemptive for trying, presumably in at least two versions depending on success?). Gnomic looks to be a speech-act marker (which may encompas some of those special distribution aspects as well) I think what has happened here is that the local idioms of ozens of languages have been elevated to logical categories and then some attempt has been made to find a logic for them. Something like the durative, for example, reeks of a language which uses a special verb form (say) when a particular time form is used, rather that just allowing a time form to be hooked on to a neutral form. I don't if there is such a language, but the advocacy of this separate notions suggests that there is and that people for whom such a language is L1 helped compile the list (that is demonstrably the case for the perfective / imperfective pair). =A0=A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---1412092350-510639058-1380142322=:46121 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I hope the Russian is better, s= ince the English is often confusing =96 ambiguous at least, contradictory occasionally. Herewith a stab at systematizing many of these items =96 and a few more.

Tense properly speaking: the reference moment placed with respect to the moment of speech and the event placed with respect to the reference moment. Lojban =96 and every other language I know of =96 is defective in forms for this and collapses various distinctions. Lojban has only does not distinguish the two relations, reference/speech and reference/event, as a rule, except by implication. Thus, {pu} may be either past tense (RP) or present retrospective (P-), On the other hand, more complicated (though often more opaque) tense forms are possible: {pupupu}, which exceeds normal tense capabilities (though {pu fu fu} does not). =20
More or less from past to future: RP- RP RP0 RP+ (recalled) {pupu. pu, pu, puba}
RAP- RAP RAP0 RAP+ (recalled anticipated) {pubapu, puba, puba, pubaba}
P- P P0 P+ {pu, ca, ca, ba}
=20 AP- AP AP0 AP+ (anticipated) {bapu, ba, ba, baba}
The vectorless forms seem to correspond loosely the notion (which is not normally tense nor aspect) of a perfective form, used without explicit mention of a temporal context other than the axis (reference).
Many familiar languages (well, to me anyhow) use use some A forms for subjunctives, to the delight of certain tense logicians.=20

Contour aspect: the reference moment placed with respect to the progress of the event described.=20

Inchoative: before the beginning but the event =93present in its causes=94 as it were maybe a state or process or activity, typically a process building to {pu'o}=20 (related to +vector)

Initiative: at the beginning, strictly an achievement, but taken with a bit before and a bit after as an enduring event, though not aspectually. {co'a}

Continuative/progressive: event goes on on either side of the reference point {ca'o) (related to 0vector)

Perfect: after the event is over but the effects linger =93present in its effects=94 {ba'o} (related to -vector)

Three stoppings, all strictly achievements but, when possible (i.e. when lexical not inflectional) extended to both sides:
Completive: (for processes only, strictly speaking) event finished. {mo'u}
Cessitive: stopped, no commitment to take up again {co'u} =20
Pausitive: stopped but to be taken up (may not be, of course) {de'a} and so

Resumptive: taking up again, even if not committed to {di'a}

Superfective: event continuing after its natural end {za'o}

Distributive 'aspect'; For events that may recur, how their recurrences are distributed in time
(I suppose there should be an infactive for an event that doesn't occur at all, but we start with)
Semelfactive: occurs only once {paroi}
Recurrent: occurs PA times {Paroi} individual occurrences are ordered by {PA re'u}

Recurrences may be
Regular {di'i} in some sense and in particular:
Continuous {ru'i}
Habitual {ta'e}
Typical {na'o}
And now we are clearly a long way from where we started. I am not at all sure what to do with the rest of the items on the cited list.

As I have said, perfective seems to be incompatible with contour aspects, which imply that the event described has a beginning middle and end. Tense, however, do allow events to be collapsed to points. In any case, Lojban does appear to have a marker for this notion {co'i}, though th4 example is fairly obscure. =20

Telic, momentane, and stative seem to be just the defining properties of processes, achievements and states rather than added features applicable across the board.=20 Instantaneous and punctual also appear to belong here =96 for achievements again, Maybe imperfective in the sense here (separate from perfective apparently) is characteristic of activities.

Retrospective and prospective are =96 and + vectors or perfect and inchoative aspect but outside their proper systems, with some distinctions between processes and activities and states.

The next cluster seems to be refinements of distributive aspect, including special cases for sifferent kinds of events, again.

So of these may be event-internal distinctions (which I tend to think of as lexical), the one blow of =93hit' and the repated blows of =93beat=94, for example, but I am not sure which of these is meant to be this and which is meant to be about one or several occasions (distribution).

The point of the next group also escapes me: experiential doesn't fit anywhere and accidental and intentional contrast but seemingly in a lexical way (defective seems to fit in here to =96 and where then is attemptive for trying, presumably in at least two versions depending on success?).

Gnomic looks to be a speech-act marker (which may encompas some of those special distribution aspects as well)

I think what has happened here is that the local idioms of ozens of languages have been elevated to logical categories and then some attempt has been made to find a logic for them. Something like the durative, for example, reeks of a language which uses a special verb form (say) when a particular time form is used, rather that just allowing a time form to be hooked on to a neutral form. I don't if there is such a language, but the advocacy of this separate notions suggests that there is and that people for whom such a language is L1 helped compile the list (that is demonstrably the case for the perfective / imperfective pair).   =

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