Received: from mail-we0-f190.google.com ([74.125.82.190]:45250) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VSPWQ-0002dS-Hu for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:47 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f190.google.com with SMTP id q59sf541454wes.27 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4kUg4WIAX+26vDV/aByqAvCX3emDJFPePMIwkmltsIw=; b=g4npQIb06ikoaojWl0/jee+ANPZs43DmWPfFNAQPOnsPHJgjXLaYxoLIHA5iLekQHC 9OYyTp+nwFU9a73Q2YdP+UQFYLGgNuNIxIePJakQmx09qjbWEmR7Rru6Np+JoAEGWeay 9CtgjbGtqmTz4F87+FRZOAjrquoI5zNWt8JAXCz5PmRgzP7d3RnRDyeU1vpYNeqBQDDL zqGGG0reRGnqQrwM6MoV/d6KgIdqtM0pdbPmTuo6BeqLdOBDbEv7V+msE2G7+PJ81lcE uWYVNsQXx6bg61bl44k9jAFWgkRmoaFbagrJB1nwSvaB/qfZncXpQNiMfNt5Hu6MZgay dyYA== X-Received: by 10.180.73.109 with SMTP id k13mr358591wiv.1.1380970529785; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.11.105 with SMTP id p9ls560431wib.31.canary; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.205.24.131 with SMTP id re3mr3705998bkb.0.1380970528721; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x231.google.com (mail-la0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id qy6si1466198bkb.3.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::231; Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id ev20so4037943lab.22 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.203.233 with SMTP id kt9mr1410918lac.29.1380970528310; Sat, 05 Oct 2013 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.180.36 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Oct 2013 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <056f397e-33c3-4b8e-bad7-8a9637f23d52@googlegroups.com> <1127a2b0-0e69-4a58-88a2-73cb93453dfb@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 04:55:28 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new member has some questions From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11345984c9083a04e7fc411f X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11345984c9083a04e7fc411f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 4:31 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > I accept both of those statements. OTOH, the things I mentioned still mar= k > the text as unusual in Lojban. > I agree wrt initial capitalism. I've literally never seen any lojbanist sufficiently capable enough to be beyond the nintadni stage use it, and the example given is the first time I've personally encountered it even as an example. Capital stress marking, however, I do not find unusual, for at least two reasons: Many people simply cannot /do/ stress marking by the very nature of their keyboard without some kind of special setup (I can /fairly/ easily because I have a program called FreeCompose on my Win-box and have set up the compose function on my *nix-box, so =C3=A0 is simply ,,<`>) an= d even then, capital marking is simply easier since A is a single combo keypress (+); capital marking is the form chosen by the designers for the simple fact that regardless of medium, if you can type in the Latin script, you most certainly can type capitals, whereas the same is not true for accent marking. (ASCII-only mediums are the obvious example.) However, I will agree up to these points: {ZARci} has fallen out of practice in favor of {zArci} within capital marking, which is most likely a result of the natural laziness of humankind; {z=C3=A0rci} does /look/ bette= r than capital marking. On a slight tangent, has anyone proposed /which/ accent mark to use, or is it still entirely user preference as to which of =C3=A0=C3=A3=C3=A2=C3=A1= =C3=A4=C4=81 to use? > stevo > > > On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:00 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote= : >> >>> Lojban doesn't mark names by capitalization, which is used to indicate >>> stress, although rarely (usually acute accent marks are used). Thus >>> {Ucauricu'um} is stressed on the first 'u' (which is okay if that's how= you >>> say it), and {Zurzulapitcis} is not Lojban, despite it following {la}. >>> >> >> Neither of those statements are technically true. Accent instead of >> capitalization is an accepted though not officially indoctrinated means = of >> marking stress, and marking non-standard stress /at all/ is so rare a th= ing >> that "usually" is rather difficult to provide evidence for. >> >> Secondly, saying that a word following la isn't a name merely because it >> contains a capitalized initial is rather more an opinion than a fact, as >> camxes is >> perfectly fine with it. >> >> >>> stevo >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Lormoral King wr= ote: >>> >>>> On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:30:25 PM UTC+2, iesk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> mi'e Ucauricu'um (I hope I said that right) >>>>>> >>>>> .i ko seka'i mi rinsa la .zurzulapitcis. lo litytce pe'u do vau zo'o >>>>> >>>> >>>> do djuno fi la Zurzulapitcis i mi zanru ledu'u go'i >>>> >>>> mi'e Ucauricu'um >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11345984c9083a04e7fc411f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Oct 5, 2013 at 4:31 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
I accept both of those stat= ements. OTOH, the things I mentioned still mark the text as unusual in Lojb= an.=C2=A0

I agree wrt initial capitalism. I've l= iterally never seen any lojbanist sufficiently capable enough to be beyond = the nintadni stage use it, and the example given is the first time I've= personally encountered it even as an example.

Capital stress marking, however, I do not find unusual, for = at least two reasons: Many people simply cannot /do/ stress marking by the = very nature of their keyboard without some kind of special setup (I can /fa= irly/ easily because I have a program called FreeCompose on my Win-box and = have set up the compose function on my *nix-box, so =C3=A0 is simply <Ca= ps>,<A>,<`>) and even then, capital marking is simply easier= since A is a single combo keypress (<Shift>+<A>); capital mark= ing is the form chosen by the designers for the simple fact that regardless= of medium, if you can type in the Latin script, you most certainly can typ= e capitals, whereas the same is not true for accent marking. (ASCII-only me= diums are the obvious example.)

However, I will agree up to these points: {ZARci} has fallen= out of practice in favor of {zArci} within capital marking, which is most = likely a result of the natural laziness of humankind; {z=C3=A0rci} does /lo= ok/ better than capital marking.

On a slight tangent, has anyone proposed /which/ accent mark= to use, or is it still entirely user preference as to which of =C3=A0=C3= =A3=C3=A2=C3=A1=C3=A4=C4=81 to use?
=C2=A0
stevo


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
=
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:00 AM, MorphemeAd= dict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Lojban doesn't mark nam= es by capitalization, which is used to indicate stress, although rarely (us= ually acute accent marks are used). Thus {Ucauricu'um} is stressed on t= he first 'u' (which is okay if that's how you say it), and {Zur= zulapitcis} is not Lojban, despite it following {la}.=C2=A0

Neither of those statements are tech= nically true. Accent instead of capitalization is an accepted though not of= ficially indoctrinated means of marking stress, and marking non-standard st= ress /at all/ is so rare a thing that "usually" is rather difficu= lt to provide evidence for.

Secondly, saying that a word following la isn't a name m= erely because it contains a capitalized initial is rather more an opinion t= han a fact, as camxes is perfectly fine with it.
=C2=A0
stevo


On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Lormoral= King <ucauricuhum@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, October = 2, 2013 10:30:25 PM UTC+2, iesk wrote:
<= div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mi'e Ucauricu'um (I hope I said tha= t right)
.i ko seka'i mi rinsa la .zurzulapitcis. lo litytce pe'u do va= u zo'o

do djuno f= i la Zurzulapitcis i mi zanru ledu'u go'i

mi'e Ucauricu'um=C2=A0

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko= cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--001a11345984c9083a04e7fc411f--