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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Aw: [lojban] Default stressed vowel
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 11:57:28 -0400
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On Saturday, October 12, 2013 00:08:47 Miles Forster wrote:
> > Von: "Pierre Abbat" <phma@bezitopo.org>
> > 1. Remove all commas.
>=20
> Yes. In fact, I think the comma should be removed from the language
> altogether, but even now I think the comma should never make a difference=
.

I'm not proposing to remove the comma from the language. I'm proposing an=
=20
algorithm, the first step of which is to remove commas.

> > 2. Separate syllables, working from right to left.
> >=20
> >   soiombos -> so,iom,bos not soi,om,bos
>=20
> I disagree with *"soi,om,bos" being a well-formed Lojban word. It contain=
s a
> syllable /om/, which has no onset. In my opinion, such syllables are not
> valid Lojban.

I'm not saying that "soi,om,bos" is or is not valid Lojban. I'm saying that=
,=20
at this point in the algorithm, "io" is grouped together because it's worki=
ng=20
from right to left.

> > 4. Place the stress on one vowel or syllabic consonant, the most promin=
ent
> > vowel in a diphthong or triphthong.
> >=20
> >   kra,TAI,go -> kra,t=E1i,go
> >   TAIN -> t=E1in
> >   FUI,ste -> fu=ED,ste
> >   spa,tr,XA,pio -> spa,tr,x=E1,pio
>=20
> To me, diphthongs are monosyllabic, so the remark about prominent vowels =
is
> unnecessary. Triphthongs don't really exist.

There is no list of triphthongs in the Book, but there is an example of a w=
ord=20
with triphthongs: "i,iai,i,iai,ion", or something like that.

> {-tai-} is one syllable, and the VV in it could as well be a V, taking th=
e
> stress as a whole.
>=20
> {-fui-} is a CCV (or a CwV, if you accept this as a thing). The stress ca=
n
> only be on the vowel "i".
> > Which vowel or syllabic consonant is stressed by default is independent=
 of
> > where one puts syllable breaks. If you say "spatrxapio" with the last t=
wo
> > letters in different syllables, you still have to stress the 'a', not t=
he
> > 'i'. Similarly, if you say "krata,igo", you stress it "krat=E1,igo".
>=20
> Here I consider *"krata,igo" an ill-formed word, as it contains a syllabl=
e
> without an onset. The only valid syllabification would be kra-tai-go.

I'm modeling the algorithm on the one used in Spanish. In Spanish the defau=
lt=20
stress is figured considering all possible diphthongs as diphthongs, even i=
f=20
they are pronounced as two syllables in some words.

"cambiar" is two syllables, "enviar" is three. There is no indication of th=
is=20
in the spelling. The only way you can know is by conjugating them: yo cambi=
o,=20
yo env=EDo.

All 3s past tense forms of the first and second past classes (first conjuga=
tion=20
and second/third conjugation regular - the other two past classes are those=
=20
like "puso" which end in unstressed -o and the unique form "fue" which belo=
ngs=20
to both "ser" and "ir") end in stressed -o (-io for the second). Most of th=
ese=20
have a written accent on the -=F3. These four do not, because there is no v=
owel=20
before a consonant:
dio (one syllable) irregular past of dar
fio (two syllables) regular past of fiar
rio (two syllables - why requires some explanation, which is irrelevant) re=
=EDr
vio (one syllable) ver
In both Spanish and Lojban, the prominent vowel of "io" is "o", so all four=
 of=20
these are by default stressed on the "o", so no written accent is needed.=
=20
"confio" by default is stressed on the first "o", but there is no such form=
, so=20
it has to be written with an accent: "conf=EDo" for "I confide", "confi=F3"=
 for "he=20
confided".

In Lojban, there are no words in which what looks like a diphthong has to b=
e=20
pronounced as two syllables, but diphthongs can be so pronounced.

> > In a cmevla, if the stress is not marked, it is assumed to be on the
> > default vowel; if that vowel is in a diphthong, the diphthong is
> > stressed. If the stress is somewhere else, it must be marked. I'm not
> > sure how to indicate that there is no stress.
>=20
> This might be another good reason why it would be good to always mark str=
ess
> on every word that carries one. The absence of any stress marker would th=
en
> indicate a stress-less word. I don't see another way, either.

All brivla have the default stress. Stress on cmavo is optional (except jus=
t=20
before many brivla, where it is avoided, else "lo krataigo" could be mishea=
rd=20
as "lokra tai go"). Whether to mark stress, or its absence, comes up only i=
n=20
cmevla. Some languages from which a cmevla could be taken don't have stress=
,=20
or have other things like tone.

Pierre
--=20
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

--=20
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