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Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 18:28:28 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkRXfZALGEbQQHFM5w-6fzVm9w36md+9FDMKbDU7WHzM1A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Taxonomy and lojban
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>wro=
te:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Michael Turniansky <
> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You can't use "spa" as the rafsi in a type-3 fu'ivla to name a plant. T=
he
>>> result, if it is a valid fu'ivla, is a type-4 fu'ivla. Similarly for
>>> "tsi". If
>>> a gismu has no CVC rafsi, you  have to use the four-letter rafsi.
>>>
>>
>>   I disagree.  The confusion is compounded because the CLL (and jbovlast=
e
>> itself) uses "djarspageti" as an example of a fu'ivla, which certainly
>> seems to be a Stage 3. The CLL on Stage 3 fu'ivla only says "A rafsi is
>> then usually attached to the beginning of the Lojbanized form, using a
>> hyphen to ensure that the resulting word doesn't fall apart."  The
>> algorithm given that insists that a four letter rafsi be used doesn't st=
ate
>> that this is the only valid way to form Stage 3 fu'ivla, only that it "i=
s
>> *a* simple and reliable procedure [emphasis added]"  But, yes, it should
>> be avoided, probably, to avoid confusions such as mernta....
>>
>
> Using a vowel-ending rafsi doesn't guarantee that you end up with a
> fu'ivla. You may end up with a lujvo (such as "jaurdei") or with a slinku=
'i
> (such as "djarpitsa"). Short rafsi are fine as long as they are of CVC
> form, not CVV or CCV. The resulting C-r-C cluster guarantees that what yo=
u
> end up with is a fu'ivla.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>     (Well, "djarpitsa" isn't actually a slinku'i, but...)   Right, I know=
.
 Hence the word "reliable" in the CLL.  The assertion that I was making was
that it (the algorithm) was not the ONLY way of making Stage-3 fu'ivla,
 that things like djarspageti are stage 3, Pierre's assertion to the
contrary.
           --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Wed, Oct 1=
6, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Pierre =
Abbat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org" target=3D"=
_blank">phma@bezitopo.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow:hidden">You can&#39;t use &quot;spa=
&quot; as the rafsi in a type-3 fu&#39;ivla to name a plant. The<br>


result, if it is a valid fu&#39;ivla, is a type-4 fu&#39;ivla. Similarly fo=
r &quot;tsi&quot;. If<br>
a gismu has no CVC rafsi, you =A0have to use the four-letter rafsi.<br></di=
v></blockquote></div><br></div>=A0 I disagree. =A0The confusion is compound=
ed because the CLL (and jbovlaste itself) uses &quot;djarspageti&quot; as a=
n example of a fu&#39;ivla, which certainly seems to be a Stage 3. The CLL =
on Stage 3 fu&#39;ivla only says &quot;A rafsi is then usually attached to =
the beginning of the Lojbanized form, using a hyphen to ensure that the res=
ulting word doesn&#39;t fall apart.&quot; =A0The algorithm given that insis=
ts that a four letter rafsi be used doesn&#39;t state that this is the only=
 valid way to form Stage 3 fu&#39;ivla, only that it=A0&quot;is <i>a</i> si=
mple and reliable procedure [emphasis added]&quot; =A0But, yes, it should b=
e avoided, probably, to avoid confusions such as mernta....</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>Using a vowel-ending raf=
si doesn&#39;t guarantee that you end up with a fu&#39;ivla. You may end up=
 with a lujvo (such as &quot;jaurdei&quot;) or with a slinku&#39;i (such as=
 &quot;djarpitsa&quot;). Short rafsi are fine as long as they are of CVC fo=
rm, not CVV or CCV. The resulting C-r-C cluster guarantees that what you en=
d up with is a fu&#39;ivla.</div>

<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>=A0 =A0 (Well, &quot;djarpitsa&quot; isn&#39;t ac=
tually a slinku&#39;i, but...) =A0 Right, I know. =A0Hence the word &quot;r=
eliable&quot; in the CLL. =A0The assertion that I was making was that it (t=
he algorithm) was not the ONLY way of making Stage-3 fu&#39;ivla, =A0that t=
hings like djarspageti are stage 3, Pierre&#39;s assertion to the contrary.=
</div>
<div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div></div></div=
>

<p></p>

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