Received: from mail-pd0-f188.google.com ([209.85.192.188]:59728) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VYxyi-0005JG-Qz for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:56:08 -0700 Received: by mail-pd0-f188.google.com with SMTP id x10sf134492pdj.5 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=oA32B3DvCEbalsX3k2/URwc08O/a8mtsumBYoY/p+kQ=; b=OyCt3MwEcR6Zn1rpHHt72jKWSRxR65z9DHYajp0unFNTG2x9gm54oBf09CWPgGsRcI Bqwjo+Fm668OxMj+kJvPLNAzrtZ6rN5c+flv6irBwgsrdOr4lCaD9dnppR5of48E0l4u 2ZTgoyIeaCSNjIRMEhyQlNzAn1mvEsRLQl0hpGMu4UMF1k7kEQin36z+s1nQMKswxEjD 8AUiar4+WXviCbBHz7NTGNTwdEOmct7woZGVbY5cgYmFV0pabGAMImvJ+kHnD2d6MzZG mNqkUq8Gq2qIcTCZnWGjqFW8rraLvg7w92dpiwNiaqmEfFJtVZ3E3QnKl6fDAEEYKaVc jDlw== X-Received: by 10.182.44.198 with SMTP id g6mr4706obm.35.1382532954609; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.22.77 with SMTP id b13ls263394obf.36.gmail; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.81.7 with SMTP id v7mr571195obx.28.1382532953731; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com (mail-qc0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gs8si960104qcb.0.2013.10.23.05.55.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c; Received: by mail-qc0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id c9so410075qcz.17 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.129.65 with SMTP id nu1mr1950254qeb.50.1382532953628; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.18.33 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2618305.BiR4epmNWU@caracal> References: <700ec671-d7a1-42ec-90d8-db1b9867fd7c@googlegroups.com> <2618305.BiR4epmNWU@caracal> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:55:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] le bilma cinfo From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b67819897679c04e9680916 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b67819897679c04e9680916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Friday, October 18, 2013 07:57:37 Lormoral King wrote: > > Hello, it's me again. > > > > After having gone through the CLL (skipping some difficult parts), I > > decided to translate a short story to practice my new knowledge. It's a > > fable called The Sick Lion. Please let me know how well I did. > > > > le bilma cinfo > > > > i pa cinfo noi ke'a mutce tolcitno seri'a lenu le cinfo na kakne lenu > bapli > > cpacu loi cidja cu jdice lenu tcica cpacu i ra xrukla le ri zdani gi'e > > vreta gi'e jifkritrazu'e leka ri bilma kei gi'e gasnu lenu leka ri bilm= a > cu > > I think "leka ri bilma kei" means "that his *den* was sick", but I'm not > sure. > Does "ri" refer to the last sumti completed or to the last started sumti > that > is complete? > > I would interpret the antecendent of that ri as the last ri (which in turn has "ra" as its precedent, which is presumably le cinfo from context, but "lo go'i" might have been a better choice). In general, I count backwards to the beginning of completed sumti, so the "ri" comes before the "le" going leftwards. Remember that pro-sumti in general (Gosh, how I hate that term. Can't we use a more lojbanic term like basysu'i or ka'irsu'i? "prosumti" sounds like someone who is anti-arguments of bridi) do not "count" for ri,ra,ru, except the ri,ra,ru and ti,ta,tu series. Still, they are usually not worth the imprecision/confusion to use them in large doses. However, for the majority of lojbanists who claim that a "ka" construct must leave open the slot that the ce'u would go in (or have the ce'u explicit), then that "ri" shouldn't be there at all (it would imply "ka ri bilma ce'u", "...pretended to be that he was sick with him-symptoms...", whatever the heck that might mean. (I'm not in that majority, so it's fine by me ;-) > > gubni se djuno i lei danlu cusku leka kecti ije ro le go'i cu nonkansa > > .i lei danli cu cusku .i na ka'e cusku lo ka co'e .i ka'e cusku lo sedu'u > co'e Yes. It appears you wish to say that they expressed their pity. So you can either use "lo sedu'u kecti" (they said that they were sorry), or simply "lei danlu cu kecti". In fact, you can even say (a little trickier, but probably the closest to your intent) "le'i danlu se cu'u kecti" (the animal expressed (something,) feeling pity) > > klama le zdani be le cinfo be'o noi le cinfo cu vlile citka le danlu i = ba > > lenu so'i lei danlu pu simsa canci le lorxu cu sanli co bartu le kevna > gi'e > > retsku lejei le cinfo cu kanro kei le cinfo > You missed the "[kei] ku" after the "canci". What you currently have is "after the event of many of the animals had similarly vanished from the fox, there was standing outside of...." Also, you can't ask a truth value. You could ask ABOUT a truth value. The way this is most commonly expressed in lojban is "le lorxu cu... retsku(/reisku (the canonical form)) lo se du'u xu kau le cinfo cu kanro" (the fox asked if the lion was healthy) > > i le cinfo cu spuda lu mi no'e > > kanro i ku'i ki'u ma do sanli co bartu le kevna i e'ocai ko nerkla le > kevna > > tezu'e lenu tavla mi li'u i le lorxu cu cusku lu na go'i ki'e i mi > cfaga'e > > ledu'u so'i jamfu prina cu nerkla ledo kevna i ku'i mi na viska le sinx= a > be > > ledu'u xrukla li'u > I'd suggest that "nu" is probably more appropriate than "du'u" for both cfaga'e2 and sinxa2. But it is an arguable point. > > > > i prije fa le se kajde be le xlali be le drata > > Looks pretty good and much better than some stuff I've seen from rank > beginners. If you just drop the other cu in there, it parses (nice pun, Pierre, but which "cu" are you referring to?) > . I'd say "lo" > several times you said "le", but which article to use is partly a matter = of > Sprachgef=FChl. > > Pierre I agree with Pierre that this an excellent first attempt, and his note the choices of the lo vs. le. Another stylistic note I would say is that while the period(full stop) before "i" isn't mandated, most lojbanists leave that particular one in, as it sets apart the sentences visually in a more noticeable way, breaking apart the monolithic text. Welcome. You are a great addition to the jboce'u --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b67819897679c04e9680916 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Pierre Abbat <= ;phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
On Friday, October 18, 201= 3 07:57:37 Lormoral King wrote:
> Hello, it's me again.
>
> After having gone through the CLL (skipping some difficult parts), I > decided to translate a short story to practice my new knowledge. It= 9;s a
> fable called The Sick Lion. Please let me know how well I did.
>
> le bilma cinfo
>
> i pa cinfo noi ke'a mutce tolcitno seri'a lenu le cinfo na kak= ne lenu bapli
> cpacu loi cidja cu jdice lenu tcica cpacu i ra xrukla le ri zdani gi&#= 39;e
> vreta gi'e jifkritrazu'e leka ri bilma kei gi'e gasnu lenu= leka ri bilma cu

I think "leka ri bilma kei" means "that his *den* was = sick", but I'm not sure.
Does "ri" refer to the last sumti completed or to the last starte= d sumti that
is complete?

=A0 I would interpret the ant= ecendent of that ri as the last ri (which in turn has "ra" as its= precedent, which is presumably le cinfo from context, but "lo go'= i" might have been a better choice). =A0In general, I count backwards = to the beginning of completed sumti, so the "ri" comes before the= "le" going leftwards. =A0Remember that pro-sumti in general =A0(= Gosh, how I hate that term. =A0Can't we use a more lojbanic term like b= asysu'i or ka'irsu'i? "prosumti" sounds like someone = who is anti-arguments of bridi) do not "count" for ri,ra,ru, exce= pt the ri,ra,ru and ti,ta,tu series. =A0Still, they are usually not worth t= he imprecision/confusion to use them in large doses.

=A0 =A0 However, for the majority of lojbanists who cla= im that a "ka" construct must =A0leave open the slot that the ce&= #39;u would go in (or have the ce'u explicit), then that "ri"= shouldn't be there at all (it would imply "ka ri bilma ce'u&q= uot;, "...pretended to be that he was sick with him-symptoms...",= whatever the heck that might mean. =A0(I'm not in that majority, so it= 's fine by me ;-)
=A0

=A0
<= div class=3D"im"> > gubni se djuno i lei danlu cusku leka kecti ije ro le go'i cu nonk= ansa

.i lei danli cu cusku .i na ka'e cusku lo ka co'e .i ka'e= cusku lo sedu'u co'e

=A0 Yes. =A0I= t appears you wish to say that they expressed their pity. =A0So you can eit= her use "lo sedu'u kecti" (they said that they were sorry), o= r simply "lei danlu cu kecti". =A0In fact, you can even say (a li= ttle trickier, but probably the closest to your intent) "le'i danl= u se cu'u kecti" (the animal expressed (something,) feeling pity)<= /div>
=A0
> klama le zdani be le cinfo be'o noi le cinfo cu vlile citka le dan= lu i ba
> lenu so'i lei danlu pu simsa canci le lorxu cu sanli co bartu le k= evna gi'e
> retsku lejei le cinfo cu kanro kei le cinfo
=A0 You missed the "[kei] ku" after the "canci&q= uot;. =A0What you currently have is "after the event of many of the an= imals had similarly vanished from the fox, there =A0was standing outside of= ...." Also, you can't ask a truth value. =A0You could ask ABOUT a = truth value. =A0The =A0way this is most commonly expressed in lojban is &qu= ot;le lorxu cu... retsku(/reisku (the canonical form)) lo se du'u xu ka= u le cinfo cu kanro" =A0(the fox asked if the lion was healthy)
=A0
> i le ci= nfo cu spuda lu mi no'e
> kanro i ku'i ki'u ma do sanli co bartu le kevna i e'ocai k= o nerkla le kevna
> tezu'e lenu tavla mi li'u i le lorxu cu cusku lu na go'i k= i'e i mi cfaga'e
> ledu'u so'i jamfu prina cu nerkla ledo kevna i ku'i mi na = viska le sinxa be
> ledu'u xrukla li'u

= =A0 I'd suggest that "nu" is probably more appropriate than &= quot;du'u" for both cfaga'e2 and sinxa2. =A0But it is an argua= ble point.
=A0
>
> i prije fa le se kajde be le xlali be le drata

Looks pretty good and much better than some stuff I've seen from = rank
beginners. If you just drop the other cu in there, it parses

=A0 (nice pun, Pierre, but which "cu" are you r= eferring to?)
=A0
. I'd say "lo"
several times you said "le", but which article to use is partly a= matter of
Sprachgef=FChl.

Pierre


=A0 Welcome= . =A0You are a great addition to the jboce'u

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at
http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--047d7b67819897679c04e9680916--