Received: from mail-vc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.220.187]:64170) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VZ0GF-0007Hn-49 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:22:30 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f187.google.com with SMTP id id10sf219494vcb.24 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:22:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pZNXH3O4P+bcXbi2Oi2aTh6SXuCwSSJOHU7s7IQ76TU=; b=qCfWIhzaUYq9dVoCIbnthYToQh9XNijz+szku2VlBf33XewXXf9DmFcyEroIk8ShgG mI/CQb7R/nFBOEUUD/uSy2ddCybt8844eV/I+wirqi0Em5pM5KXt15p6Dfe2V6T9oScZ qyTxRFB/OJ02XBvn9eCn2Ko/jWWgeWdHWvOQFb4yxQtS6E1+mWwE9+Cu2uv/pNtFjBas 61xKQxGICrt2rF6j3ap5NVYkFHmjgPXVR8Pkm7GBBIidGSyyb3HEkvC8uxkErYXyxCX7 PM+3lcsTyezKByT258GuXkCeB9ngpmWgVN1eYVPu43f4xbbkrKKPwh/yKqeQnEjhUCZj bp5A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pZNXH3O4P+bcXbi2Oi2aTh6SXuCwSSJOHU7s7IQ76TU=; b=PWgJE7JtPKnnTDQHGIw01KzbOl+bo0Q6zSUk98bDfbNklqeS1M/HawOkDMxi9qWL6J QGRMkkMlOb2BpeLBndBkrpxZY6bwl6l0gP6F4mlozLqHkb9wkeujdzbldqRixVeXFqGD tJMmq4D29vbtVrHvPid6sX4lbT2EckRgqxSAIKTUUlrcmxg8mO2D1IJ/59AiIJFGIAaE uH4DLlruScGBU7gDjWDwPnyrFB4PDsvnzPtuq8ErAYYvPvyQHUCN4RWX+OeEgj2LPFqc dM8ZdQGAaRp1nPplrJHQ9I1xVIsmYvpkGJE4VgX8g8qGW9bq5zBIbEqasKARQD/HPkHO 2uGw== X-Received: by 10.50.111.200 with SMTP id ik8mr79619igb.7.1382541728669; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.61.162 with SMTP id q2ls3071934igr.41.canary; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:22:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.73.39 with SMTP id i7mr79412igv.1.1382541727914; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:22:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Lormoral King To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <596fb27a-1957-4a59-bae2-14d8ea210dc3@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <700ec671-d7a1-42ec-90d8-db1b9867fd7c@googlegroups.com> <2618305.BiR4epmNWU@caracal> Subject: Re: [lojban] le bilma cinfo MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: ucauricuhum@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_181_22029153.1382541726728" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_181_22029153.1382541726728 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Pierre and gejyspa! On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:55:53 PM UTC+2, gejyspa wrote: > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Pierre Abbat > > wrote: > >> On Friday, October 18, 2013 07:57:37 Lormoral King wrote: >> > Hello, it's me again. >> > >> > After having gone through the CLL (skipping some difficult parts), I >> > decided to translate a short story to practice my new knowledge. It's = a >> > fable called The Sick Lion. Please let me know how well I did. >> > >> > le bilma cinfo >> > >> > i pa cinfo noi ke'a mutce tolcitno seri'a lenu le cinfo na kakne lenu= =20 >> bapli >> > cpacu loi cidja cu jdice lenu tcica cpacu i ra xrukla le ri zdani gi'e >> > vreta gi'e jifkritrazu'e leka ri bilma kei gi'e gasnu lenu leka ri=20 >> bilma cu >> >> I think "leka ri bilma kei" means "that his *den* was sick", but I'm not= =20 >> sure. >> Does "ri" refer to the last sumti completed or to the last started sumti= =20 >> that >> is complete? >> >> I would interpret the antecendent of that ri as the last ri (which in= =20 > turn has "ra" as its precedent, which is presumably le cinfo from context= ,=20 > but "lo go'i" might have been a better choice). In general, I count=20 > backwards to the beginning of completed sumti, so the "ri" comes before t= he=20 > "le" going leftwards. Remember that pro-sumti in general (Gosh, how I= =20 > hate that term. Can't we use a more lojbanic term like basysu'i or=20 > ka'irsu'i? "prosumti" sounds like someone who is anti-arguments of bridi)= =20 > do not "count" for ri,ra,ru, except the ri,ra,ru and ti,ta,tu series.=20 > Still, they are usually not worth the imprecision/confusion to use them = in=20 > large doses. > I shall reread the relevant section in the CLL. =20 > > However, for the majority of lojbanists who claim that a "ka"=20 > construct must leave open the slot that the ce'u would go in (or have th= e=20 > ce'u explicit), then that "ri" shouldn't be there at all (it would imply= =20 > "ka ri bilma ce'u", "...pretended to be that he was sick with=20 > him-symptoms...", whatever the heck that might mean. (I'm not in that=20 > majority, so it's fine by me ;-) > This sounds interesting. I think I may have heard something like that about= =20 "ka", but I can't recall what exactly it was. I will try to read more about= =20 "ce'u" as well. =20 > =20 > >> > gubni se djuno i lei danlu cusku leka kecti ije ro le go'i cu nonkansa >> >> .i lei danli cu cusku .i na ka'e cusku lo ka co'e .i ka'e cusku lo sedu'= u=20 >> co'e > > > Yes. It appears you wish to say that they expressed their pity. So yo= u=20 > can either use "lo sedu'u kecti" (they said that they were sorry), or=20 > simply "lei danlu cu kecti". In fact, you can even say (a little trickie= r,=20 > but probably the closest to your intent) "le'i danlu se cu'u kecti" (the= =20 > animal expressed (something,) feeling pity) > Can one not say "cusku leka kecti"? It seems to match "express pity" quite= =20 well. Isn't there a difference between "feeling pity" and "expressing=20 pity"? Maybe "jarco" can be used? =20 > =20 > >> > klama le zdani be le cinfo be'o noi le cinfo cu vlile citka le danlu i= =20 >> ba >> > lenu so'i lei danlu pu simsa canci le lorxu cu sanli co bartu le kevna= =20 >> gi'e >> > retsku lejei le cinfo cu kanro kei le cinfo >> > > You missed the "[kei] ku" after the "canci". What you currently have i= s=20 > "after the event of many of the animals had similarly vanished from the= =20 > fox, there was standing outside of...." Also, you can't ask a truth valu= e.=20 > You could ask ABOUT a truth value. The way this is most commonly=20 > expressed in lojban is "le lorxu cu... retsku(/reisku (the canonical form= ))=20 > lo se du'u xu kau le cinfo cu kanro" (the fox asked if the lion was=20 > healthy) > Oh, yes. I have to try hard not to forget those terminators. It's not easy! =20 > =20 > >> > i le cinfo cu spuda lu mi no'e >> > kanro i ku'i ki'u ma do sanli co bartu le kevna i e'ocai ko nerkla le= =20 >> kevna >> > tezu'e lenu tavla mi li'u i le lorxu cu cusku lu na go'i ki'e i mi=20 >> cfaga'e >> > ledu'u so'i jamfu prina cu nerkla ledo kevna i ku'i mi na viska le=20 >> sinxa be >> > ledu'u xrukla li'u >> > > I'd suggest that "nu" is probably more appropriate than "du'u" for both= =20 > cfaga'e2 and sinxa2. But it is an arguable point. > =20 > >> > >> > i prije fa le se kajde be le xlali be le drata >> >> Looks pretty good and much better than some stuff I've seen from rank >> beginners. If you just drop the other cu in there, it parses > > > (nice pun, Pierre, but which "cu" are you referring to?) > =20 > >> . I'd say "lo" >> several times you said "le", but which article to use is partly a matter= =20 >> of >> Sprachgef=FChl. >> >> Pierre > > > I agree with Pierre that this an excellent first attempt, and his note= =20 > the choices of the lo vs. le. =20 > I just went with what I had gathered from the CLL. I have yet to read other= =20 sources in depth. I still don't know exactly how the "xorlo" revision=20 works... =20 > Another stylistic note I would say is that while the period(full stop)=20 > before "i" isn't mandated, most lojbanists leave that particular one in, = as=20 > it sets apart the sentences visually in a more noticeable way, breaking= =20 > apart the monolithic text. > Okay. I will try that. =20 --mi'e Ucauricu'um =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_181_22029153.1382541726728 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Pierre and gejyspa!

On Wednesday, October 23= , 2013 2:55:53 PM UTC+2, gejyspa wrote:
On Fri, Oct 1= 8, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@bezitopo= .org> wrote:
On Friday, October 18, 2013 07:57:37 Lo= rmoral King wrote:
> Hello, it's me again.
>
> After having gone through the CLL (skipping some difficult parts), I > decided to translate a short story to practice my new knowledge. It's = a
> fable called The Sick Lion. Please let me know how well I did.
>
> le bilma cinfo
>
> i pa cinfo noi ke'a mutce tolcitno seri'a lenu le cinfo na kakne lenu = bapli
> cpacu loi cidja cu jdice lenu tcica cpacu i ra xrukla le ri zdani gi'e=
> vreta gi'e jifkritrazu'e leka ri bilma kei gi'e gasnu lenu leka ri bil= ma cu

I think "leka ri bilma kei" means "that his *den* was sick", but I'm = not sure.
Does "ri" refer to the last sumti completed or to the last started sumti th= at
is complete?

  I would interpret the antecendent o= f that ri as the last ri (which in turn has "ra" as its precedent, which is= presumably le cinfo from context, but "lo go'i" might have been a better c= hoice).  In general, I count backwards to the beginning of completed s= umti, so the "ri" comes before the "le" going leftwards.  Remember tha= t pro-sumti in general  (Gosh, how I hate that term.  Can't we us= e a more lojbanic term like basysu'i or ka'irsu'i? "prosumti" sounds like s= omeone who is anti-arguments of bridi) do not "count" for ri,ra,ru, except = the ri,ra,ru and ti,ta,tu series.  Still, they are usually not worth t= he imprecision/confusion to use them in large doses.

I shall reread the relevant section in the CLL.
&= nbsp;

    However, for the majority of lojbanists w= ho claim that a "ka" construct must  leave open the slot that the ce'u= would go in (or have the ce'u explicit), then that "ri" shouldn't be there= at all (it would imply "ka ri bilma ce'u", "...pretended to be that he was= sick with him-symptoms...", whatever the heck that might mean.  (I'm = not in that majority, so it's fine by me ;-)

This sounds interesting. I think I may have heard something = like that about "ka", but I can't recall what exactly it was. I will try to= read more about "ce'u" as well.
 
 
> gubni se djuno i lei danlu cusku leka kecti ije ro le go'i cu nonkansa=

.i lei danli cu cusku .i na ka'e cusku lo ka co'e .i ka'e cusku lo se= du'u co'e

  Yes.  It appears you = wish to say that they expressed their pity.  So you can either use "lo= sedu'u kecti" (they said that they were sorry), or simply "lei danlu cu ke= cti".  In fact, you can even say (a little trickier, but probably the = closest to your intent) "le'i danlu se cu'u kecti" (the animal expressed (s= omething,) feeling pity)

Can o= ne not say "cusku leka kecti"? It seems to match "express pity" quite well.= Isn't there a difference between "feeling pity" and "expressing pity"? May= be "jarco" can be used?
 
 
> klama le zdani be le cinfo be'o noi le cinfo cu vlile citka le danlu i= ba
> lenu so'i lei danlu pu simsa canci le lorxu cu sanli co bartu le kevna= gi'e
> retsku lejei le cinfo cu kanro kei le cinfo
  You missed the "[kei] ku" after the "canci".  What = you currently have is "after the event of many of the animals had similarly= vanished from the fox, there  was standing outside of...." Also, you = can't ask a truth value.  You could ask ABOUT a truth value.  The=  way this is most commonly expressed in lojban is "le lorxu cu... ret= sku(/reisku (the canonical form)) lo se du'u xu kau le cinfo cu kanro" &nbs= p;(the fox asked if the lion was healthy)

Oh, yes. I have to try hard not to forget those terminators. It= 's not easy!
 
 
> i le cinfo cu spu= da lu mi no'e
> kanro i ku'i ki'u ma do sanli co bartu le kevna i e'ocai ko nerkla le = kevna
> tezu'e lenu tavla mi li'u i le lorxu cu cusku lu na go'i ki'e i mi cfa= ga'e
> ledu'u so'i jamfu prina cu nerkla ledo kevna i ku'i mi na viska le sin= xa be
> ledu'u xrukla li'u

  I'= d suggest that "nu" is probably more appropriate than "du'u" for both cfaga= 'e2 and sinxa2.  But it is an arguable point.
 
>
> i prije fa le se kajde be le xlali be le drata

Looks pretty good and much better than some stuff I've seen from rank=
beginners. If you just drop the other cu in there, it parses

  (nice pun, Pierre, but which "cu" are you referrin= g to?)
 
. I'd say "lo"
several times you said "le", but which article to use is partly a matter of=
Sprachgef=FChl.

Pierre

  I agree with P= ierre that this an excellent first attempt, and his note the choices of the= lo vs. le.  

I just went with what I= had gathered from the CLL. I have yet to read other sources in depth. I st= ill don't know exactly how the "xorlo" revision works...
 
Another sty= listic note I would say is that while the period(full stop) before "i" isn'= t mandated, most lojbanists leave that particular one in, as it sets apart = the sentences visually in a more noticeable way, breaking apart the monolit= hic text.

Okay. I will try that.
 =
--mi'e Ucauricu'um
 

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