Received: from mail-yh0-f64.google.com ([209.85.213.64]:44499) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VZ2Xr-0000hR-DE for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:48:47 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f64.google.com with SMTP id z20sf250402yhz.19 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XhDPlSQih7FevQgB8OyRysgTzLil98VN0bewF3P2xoQ=; b=ZGYsv9DvCfKlQ9i73Pjwl7DJQrHMJMahZy//C/EOHa71v8Mugop/5xGOywE/paJ9UT Wz6XSca+8UXUH4Qb6NzkWxSBPNvhB7ufOcV4Vk8bGhKr4m6f0aOEh6DCYtt7uhcDwJGi awCfvOl8jI5FRsv2OrVNDY2iQptw+BHceB/n4wkquPtYGGZWvDGWHowRu0R9ELdHi7NE aBRAGUZTy3LR+sIlZxsLKNtZDLALnhsy3SAbuZ+yMOQPAtbR3FUErCMFD0Hr6+1+YKbz PuSYk7UMCgxeMvCPqRvV7m3vTMNx07WxDBEF2xEGezfUV4JQpHxD2psnKUUxj9T5sKrI KYSA== X-Received: by 10.50.40.4 with SMTP id t4mr84476igk.15.1382550508365; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.112.71 with SMTP id io7ls878190igb.18.gmail; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.44.2 with SMTP id a2mr111812igm.6.1382550507861; Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) From: pyrapopo@princeton.edu To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <786bdacd-06ac-4ef6-b665-8c9c6e4c1061@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <6bbae0d7-8b9a-4425-8399-418c87fc5941@googlegroups.com> References: <1de0841c-1bc8-4815-9fc9-56bc6eaef179@googlegroups.com> <6bbae0d7-8b9a-4425-8399-418c87fc5941@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi pu fanva le pemci MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: pyrapopo@princeton.edu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_690_13332048.1382550506847" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:22:58 PM UTC-4, guskant wrote: > > > > Le mercredi 23 octobre 2013 14:57:53 UTC+9, Paul Rapoport a écrit : >> >> coi rodo >> .i mi pu fanva le pemci goi ko'a >> .i zoi gy.This is just to say gy. cu cmene ko'a >> .i .e'o ko mencti >> >> > ki'e .i .au so'u da pinka fi mi > .y .i ki'a [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid ------=_Part_690_13332048.1382550506847 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:22:58 PM UTC-4, guskant wrote: > > > > Le mercredi 23 octobre 2013 14:57:53 UTC+9, Paul Rapoport a =E9crit : >> >> coi rodo >> .i mi pu fanva le pemci goi ko'a >> .i zoi gy.This is just to say gy. cu cmene ko'a >> .i .e'o ko mencti >> >> > ki'e .i .au so'u da pinka fi mi > .y .i ki'a=20 > > =20 > >> .i tu'e >> >> ju'i do'u mi cusku sa'u le nu >> >> mi puba'o citka >> le so'o zirsmela >> noi nenri >> > > (poi nenri) > # I would use {poi} rather than {noi} because I think the clause "that=20 > were..." restricts "the plums". > .ie=20 > =20 > >> le bistanxe ku'o >> >> > (le bista'e) > # {bista'e} is shorter. This {ku'o} can be omitted because the following= =20 > {zi'e} makes clear that the clause terminates here. > mi zbasu troci le zoi gy. calque gy. pe zoi gy. icebox gy. > =20 > >> zi'e noi >> la'a do puca'o=20 >> ralte=20 >> > > (jai gau sorcu) > # I think this "saving" means "reserving/storing" rather than "keeping in= =20 > possession". I need {jai gau} for making {do} be x1 of {sorcu}. > #But yeah, isn't the idea supposed to be "keeping in possession in the= =20 > icebox for breakfast"? > >> tezu'e cersai >> >> > -> tezu'e lo nu cersai > # Because this {tezu'e} should make a term of the bridi {do puca'o ralte}= =20 > or {do puca'o jai gau sorcu}, it should be followed by a sumti. I would= =20 > accept {tezu'e lo cersai}; however {tezu'e} takes a goal/result of {zukte= },=20 > and I am not sure how "a mass of breakfast" {lo cersai} can be a=20 > goal/result of an action. {lo nu cersai} is better if the goal is=20 > "taking breakfast". > "For the goal of (being) a-mass-of/a-thing-that-is breakfast"? > =20 > >> .i .u'ucui ko fraxu le nu la'e go'i >> > > -> .i ko mi fraxu > # {fraxu} x2 is a person. {la'e go'i} is not grammatical because {la'e}= =20 > should be followed by a sumti and {go'i} is a bridi. As a translation of= =20 > "Forgive me", {ko mi sidju} is necessary and sufficient. > #I was trying to convey a sense of "forgive me for my doing the thing I= =20 > just expressed". Possibly this was not necessary. > >> .i be'unai .oinairo'o da pu kukte >> > > -> .i zy pu kukte > # {da pu kukte} is equal to {su'o da zo'u da pu kukte}, which means "ther= e=20 > is at least one x such that x was delicious", and not suitable here. The= =20 > pronoun "they" of the original text indicates "the plums", which you=20 > translated as {le so'o zirsmela}. This sumti can be represented by {zy}= =20 > taken from the first letter of {zirsmela}. > #That's a common assumed ko'a bind? Got it.=20 > .i titla mutce >> gi'e lenku mutce >> >> > # The last three verses form one sentence beginning with "they"; {kukte},= =20 > {titla mutce} and {lenku mutce} take the same terms {zy} and {pu (ku)}. I= =20 > would translate this part as follows: > # I'd assumed that "They were delicious" was its own sentence. If not,= =20 > the second one looks better.=20 > {.i zy pu kukte > je titla bo mutce > je lenku bo mutce} > or=20 > {.i zy pu ku kukte=20 > gi'e titla mutce > gi'e lenku mutce} > =20 > >> tu'u >> >> re'i mi'e lorxus >> > > =20 > I recommend you to subscribe to jbofanva mailing list > http://groups.google.com/group/jbofanva > which is private, and you will be able to discuss it without concern in= =20 > copyright. > je'e=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_690_13332048.1382550506847 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:22:58 PM UTC-4, g= uskant wrote:
=

Le mercredi 23 octobre 2013 14:57:53 UTC+9, Paul Rapoport a =E9crit=  :
coi rodo.i mi pu fanva le pemci goi ko'a
.i zoi gy.This is just to say gy. cu c= mene ko'a
.i .e'o ko mencti


ki'e .i .au so'u da pinka fi mi
.y .i k= i'a

 
.i tu'e

ju'i do'u mi cusku sa'u le n= u

mi puba'o citka
le so'o zirsmela
noi nenri

(poi nenri)
# I would use {poi} rather t= han {noi} because I think the clause "that were..." restricts "the plums".<= /div>
.ie
 
le bistanxe ku'o


(le bista'e)
# {bista'e} is shorter= . This {ku'o} can be omitted because the following {zi'e} makes clear that = the clause terminates here.
mi zbasu troci le = zoi gy. calque gy. pe zoi gy. icebox gy.
 
zi'e noi
la'a do puca'o=
ralte

(jai gau sorcu)
=
# I think this "saving" means "reserving/storing" rather than "keeping= in possession". I need {jai gau} for making {do} be x1 of {sorcu}.
 #But yeah, isn't the idea supposed to be "keeping in possession in= the icebox for breakfast"?
tezu'e cersai


<= div>-> tezu'e lo nu cersai
# Because this {tezu'e} should make= a term of the bridi {do puca'o ralte} or {do puca'o jai gau sorcu}, it sho= uld be followed by a sumti. I would accept {tezu'e lo cersai}; however {tez= u'e} takes a goal/result of {zukte}, and I am not sure how "a mass of break= fast" {lo cersai} can be a goal/result of an action. {lo nu cersai} is bett= er if the goal is "taking breakfast".
&nb= sp;"For the goal of (being) a-mass-of/a-thing-that-is breakfast"?
=
=
 
.i .u'ucui ko fraxu le nu la'e go'i

-> .i ko mi fraxu
# {fraxu} x2 is a person. {la'e go'i} = is not grammatical because {la'e} should be followed by a sumti and {go'i} = is a bridi. As a translation of "Forgive me", {ko mi sidju} is necessary an= d sufficient.
 #I was trying to convey a sense of "forgive m= e for my doing the thing I just expressed". Possibly this was not necessary= .
.i be'u= nai .oinairo'o da pu kukte

-> = .i zy pu kukte
# {da pu kukte} is equal to {su'o da zo'u da pu ku= kte}, which means "there is at least one x such that x was delicious", and = not suitable here. The pronoun "they" of the original text indicates "the p= lums", which you translated as {le so'o zirsmela}. This sumti can be repres= ented by {zy} taken from the first letter of {zirsmela}.
 #T= hat's a common assumed ko'a bind? Got it.
.i titla mu= tce
gi'e lenku mutce


# The= last three verses form one sentence beginning with "they"; {kukte}, {titla= mutce} and {lenku mutce} take the same terms {zy} and {pu (ku)}. I would t= ranslate this part as follows:
 # I'd assumed that "They wer= e delicious" was its own sentence. If not, the second one looks better.
{.i zy pu kukte
je titla bo mutce
je lenku = bo mutce}
or 
{.i zy pu ku kukte 
g= i'e titla mutce
gi'e lenku mutce}
 
tu'u

re'i mi'e lorxu= s

 
I rec= ommend you to subscribe to jbofanva mailing list
which is private, and you will be abl= e to discuss it without concern in copyright.
je'e

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