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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:19:31 +0100
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Officialness, spin-off projects, dialects, communication
 with the outside world
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la .iesk. cu cusku di'e
> The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I thought
> is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly different
> language under the provisional name of La Bangu:
> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obsolete')
> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu
> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang ('Lojban ha=
d
> 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?)
>
> So, just to get a clear picture:
>
> What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')?

Do you really want to get into this discussion? It's all politics.

> I *think* it is
> http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html, and
> the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo. So, eg,
> {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} is not
> equivalent to *{mi je do broda}.

Yes, let's say that's official. So what? That's not very informative, if=20
people have the freedom (and use it) to speak however they want. Needing=20
a {ku} is just annoying, why hang on to it? This is a rhetorical question.

> What is the MediaWiki about?

Not sure. I think it started out as a way to get a more user-friendly=20
wiki that doesn't have such cluttered pages as the old tiki. Something=20
that a beginner could read and not get confused.

Now there are lots of unofficial projects on it, but that's the natural=20
result of the conservative "leadership". The user base is going to do=20
what they think is right, and they will make the changes no matter what.

The only difference is whether or not the changes occur through an=20
"official" procedure, say, through discussions + final voting, and=20
whether or not they will be documented properly. There is demand for=20
change, but the conservative party blocks any ambitions. Nothing must=20
change!

> I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and
> continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (as a
> part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version of)
> Lojban.

Right, except there is no agreed-upon official version (assuming you=20
don't only talk about grammar, but also semantics, which in my opinion=20
cannot be ignored, but some think Lojban equals Lojban's grammar).

> (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I try
> to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am
> thankful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.)

I would like to second this. gleki has been doing a lot.

> If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the)
> language, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining
> that what follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may
> be, is not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of
> lojban.org.

lojban.org's tiki as a whole has never presented a uniform, consistent,=20
single Lojban. There is so much variance among the different tiki pages.=20
There is at least a slight chance that the new wiki will be more=20
uniform, even if what it presents does not match the CLL. Then again,=20
show me two Lojbanists who speak the same language.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i


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