Received: from mail-la0-f62.google.com ([209.85.215.62]:36261) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vaohw-0001EE-4J for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:45 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f62.google.com with SMTP id ea20sf826090lab.17 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pPyYyIzJ+Hpi+vj3V/Kzz/vdm66hsbVCMnWodFlaRPI=; b=HWEBptuPlYpeg+J16uq4xFFKBGXfx0C+YPPHCXFz5BN+u2HRRZPhUBQz5uqIcO7Y9o +U2r5ZwgKB9c3rMgkw/qcZQu4vVxf+nm7adnXrdly8J1/ubjSGP3wVaLOwuKKHrjbXSL OrpBdBJoCGKS9uFnWT204NaH57M6EUxbHQw5KcSc5yKTJI5PRFycxTctaveYiyXN31wR lEUfy4rwed5uDfwEK7SHiYMCWK3COKky0S4HfHzj+H1hLvITbhEFowrejyKW/BkyxE/r jvcCb+GAN11jgq4XA0rfU3dfTQPZzdhrlw1Af59ey3pPaXP/LQyEo2zUyH3ESU2EHGU5 zdmw== X-Received: by 10.180.187.7 with SMTP id fo7mr89842wic.0.1382973972221; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.37.17 with SMTP id u17ls539607wij.7.gmail; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.74.197 with SMTP id w5mr4543100wiv.0.1382973971695; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fk2si638492wib.2.2013.10.28.08.26.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::234; Received: by mail-wg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k14so1947789wgh.31 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.20.230 with SMTP id q6mr2461923wje.49.1382973971584; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.232.133 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <526E8083.6070206@gmx.de> References: <82e3500a-a054-43bd-bf9e-9c0e3162d39b@googlegroups.com> <526E8083.6070206@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:26:11 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Officialness, spin-off projects, dialects, communication with the outside world From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d971b4f5ef904e9ceb816 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Mentioning spin-off projects in "joiku" article was too much, I agree. I can make mistakes especially since everybody is watching/critisizing .enai contributing. However, in my opinion official Lojban includes not only xorlo, but also dotside, kanpe and *camxes*. According to camxes http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=lo+ladru+joi+lo+ckafi+cu+kukte parses so the rest of that article is obsolete in post-camxes Lojban. [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: gmx.de] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --047d7b5d971b4f5ef904e9ceb816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mentioning spin-off projects in "joiku" article was too much, I agree. I can make mistakes especially since everybody is watching/critisizing .enai contributing. However, in my opinion official Lojban includes not only xorlo, but also dotside, kanpe and *camxes*. According to camxes http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=3Dlo+ladru+joi+lo+ckafi+cu+kukte parses so the rest of that article is obsolete in post-camxes Lojban. On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 7:19 PM, selpa'i wrote: > la .iesk. cu cusku di'e > >> The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I thought >> is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly different >> language under the provisional name of La Bangu: >> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.**php/Obsolete:_joiku(note the 'obsolete') >> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.**php/Stub:_La_Bangu >> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.**php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang('Lojban had >> 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?) >> >> So, just to get a clear picture: >> >> What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')? >> > > Do you really want to get into this discussion? It's all politics. > > I *think* it is >> http://www.lojban.org/**publications/reference_**grammar/chapter21.html<= http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html>, >> and >> the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo. So, eg, >> {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} is not >> equivalent to *{mi je do broda}. >> > > Yes, let's say that's official. So what? That's not very informative, if > people have the freedom (and use it) to speak however they want. Needing = a > {ku} is just annoying, why hang on to it? This is a rhetorical question. > > What is the MediaWiki about? >> > > Not sure. I think it started out as a way to get a more user-friendly wik= i > that doesn't have such cluttered pages as the old tiki. Something that a > beginner could read and not get confused. > > Now there are lots of unofficial projects on it, but that's the natural > result of the conservative "leadership". The user base is going to do wha= t > they think is right, and they will make the changes no matter what. > > The only difference is whether or not the changes occur through an > "official" procedure, say, through discussions + final voting, and whethe= r > or not they will be documented properly. There is demand for change, but > the conservative party blocks any ambitions. Nothing must change! > > I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and >> continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (as a >> part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version of) >> Lojban. >> > > Right, except there is no agreed-upon official version (assuming you don'= t > only talk about grammar, but also semantics, which in my opinion cannot b= e > ignored, but some think Lojban equals Lojban's grammar). > > (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I try >> to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am >> thankful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.) >> > > I would like to second this. gleki has been doing a lot. > > If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) >> language, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining >> that what follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may >> be, is not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of >> lojban.org. >> > > lojban.org's tiki as a whole has never presented a uniform, consistent, > single Lojban. There is so much variance among the different tiki pages. > There is at least a slight chance that the new wiki will be more uniform, > even if what it presents does not match the CLL. Then again, show me two > Lojbanists who speak the same language. > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b5d971b4f5ef904e9ceb816 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mentioning spin-off projects in "joiku" article = was too much, I agree. I can make mistakes especially since everybody is wa= tching/critisizing .enai contributing.

However, in my op= inion official Lojban includes not only xorlo, but also dotside, kanpe and = camxes. According to camxes=A0
parses so the rest of that article is obsolete i= n post-camxes Lojban.



On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 7:19 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
la .iesk. cu cusku di'e
The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I thought
is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly differe= nt
language under the provisional name of La Bangu:
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the &= #39;obsolete')
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_a= uxlang ('Lojban had
6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?)
So, just to get a clear picture:

What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')?

Do you really want to get into this discussion? It's all politics.

I *think* it is
http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_= grammar/chapter21.html, and
the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo. So, eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} is not
equivalent to *{mi je do broda}.

Yes, let's say that's official. So what? That's not very inform= ative, if people have the freedom (and use it) to speak however they want. = Needing a {ku} is just annoying, why hang on to it? This is a rhetorical qu= estion.

What is the MediaWiki about?

Not sure. I think it started out as a way to get a more user-friendly wiki = that doesn't have such cluttered pages as the old tiki. Something that = a beginner could read and not get confused.

Now there are lots of unofficial projects on it, but that's the natural= result of the conservative "leadership". The user base is going = to do what they think is right, and they will make the changes no matter wh= at.

The only difference is whether or not the changes occur through an "of= ficial" procedure, say, through discussions + final voting, and whethe= r or not they will be documented properly. There is demand for change, but = the conservative party blocks any ambitions. Nothing must change!

I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and
continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (as a part of lojban.org) abo= ut (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version of)
Lojban.

Right, except there is no agreed-upon official version (assuming you don= 9;t only talk about grammar, but also semantics, which in my opinion cannot= be ignored, but some think Lojban equals Lojban's grammar).

(By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I try
to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am
thankful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.)

I would like to second this. gleki has been doing a lot.

If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the)
language, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining
that what follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it= may
be, is not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of
lojban.org.

lojban.org's tiki a= s a whole has never presented a uniform, consistent, single Lojban. There i= s so much variance among the different tiki pages. There is at least a slig= ht chance that the new wiki will be more uniform, even if what it presents = does not match the CLL. Then again, show me two Lojbanists who speak the sa= me language.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--047d7b5d971b4f5ef904e9ceb816--