Received: from mail-qa0-f55.google.com ([209.85.216.55]:49047) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VbyUx-0008Vv-6E for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:57 -0700 Received: by mail-qa0-f55.google.com with SMTP id cm18sf36579qab.20 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dyySF1c6vOIeucWA9CaquhcF3PMTsC846IDmVpwujoY=; b=U+zUncZYOt14sq2ygdy1z/XtmIAV32g34T4a/+HZIZe55qiRkWtDPiH3mg6be2mz4+ MdhAKBr99LJHzRmhc7IHOE00UjNsdfbs94CSUZY8yk2YbFxm3R1uZUF5MC5bPyPUXRs2 ACJ/v6pqd1iXeIE4EIYgPAtb9AoST7DWVNn06ZgAIxeoK76KavfcoMHQOgt0IndXT+Nm kE1Vi8ntfmrezwufU2CCdJYFh30Duijj5jB9N7kaMhycYXvO5fWCI4TlSYS7huAyKAtn S4thmHvXSXVZMyjNzQ0T1Q7rj0kKx5hw5YRJ/Ejv+BZvu819Dp3ZlUXtJWdWF4TsKVG+ Usjw== X-Received: by 10.50.138.197 with SMTP id qs5mr46175igb.7.1383249936631; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.85.48 with SMTP id e16ls126713igz.8.canary; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.141.46 with SMTP id rl14mr759804pab.44.1383249935562; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x232.google.com (mail-qc0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b6si680142qcn.1.2013.10.31.13.05.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232; Received: by mail-qc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id x19so1968877qcw.9 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.17.137 with SMTP id o9mr6755223qed.72.1383249935357; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.18.33 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Oct 2013 13:05:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <82e3500a-a054-43bd-bf9e-9c0e3162d39b@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:05:35 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Officialness, spin-off projects, dialects, communication with the outside world (was: Re: LMW reloaded (lojbo uitki)) From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bea3a4208734104ea0ef9b8 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki's personal plaything. I personally give it no imprimatur of officialdom. YMMV (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experimental) ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.) [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mturniansky[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: gmx.de] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --047d7bea3a4208734104ea0ef9b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki's personal plaything. I personally give it no imprimatur of officialdom. YMMV (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experimental) ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.) --gejyspa On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk wrote: > The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I thought is > 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly different langua= ge > under the provisional name of La Bangu: > =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obsolete') > =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu > =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang ('Lojban ha= d > 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?) > > So, just to get a clear picture: > > What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')? > > I *think* it is > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html, and > the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo. So, eg, > {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} is not > equivalent to *{mi je do broda}. > > What is the MediaWiki about? > > I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and continuatio= n > of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (as a part of > lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version of) Lojban. (By > the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I try to ignore som= e > of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am thankful to Gleki fo= r > putting so much work into it.) > > If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) language= , > then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining that what > follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be, is not > the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org. Just > to not confuse the casual reader. (While I have nothing against playing > around with dialects, variations in grammar and such=97a living language > Lojban shall be=97, I find it particularly confusing to call the 'prestig= e > dialect' _obsolete_ or _outdated._) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7bea3a4208734104ea0ef9b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki's personal plaything. =A0I pe= rsonally give it no imprimatur of officialdom. =A0YMMV

= =A0 (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experimental) ideas, = but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.)

=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa



On Mon, Oct 28, 2013= at 10:51 AM, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:
The MediaWiki ('LMW'= ;) at lojban.org seems = to imply that what I thought is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and = to promote a slightly different language under the provisional name of La B= angu:
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obs= olete')
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang<= /a> ('Lojban had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does sti= ll, doesn=92t it?)

So, just to get a clear picture:

What is the language promoted = by the LLG ('official Lojban')?

I *think* it is http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.= html, and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xor= lo. So, eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda}= is not equivalent to *{mi je do broda}.

What is the MediaWiki about?

I *thought* it was just a supposedl= y user-friendlier copy and continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wi= ki) chaotic, still (as a part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version= of) Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I tr= y to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am thank= ful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.)

If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) langua= ge, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining that what fo= llows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be, is = not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org. Just to not confuse the cas= ual reader. (While I have nothing against playing around with dialects, var= iations in grammar and such=97a living language Lojban shall be=97, I find = it particularly confusing to call the 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_= or _outdated._)

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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