Received: from mail-oa0-f58.google.com ([209.85.219.58]:39970) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VcETI-0008IM-Em for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:09:17 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f58.google.com with SMTP id l20sf872333oag.13 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=TFOZ9bBmhQnyHIt0wT38KK7uMS9AVss/aGD5RJ1Bqww=; b=uAWzT76C/JDLJDK0S8i1ylN1/wPmkFo17voIMg5ZQo6zlwmF0gVzvH/8aVsLZMawE9 vRN1QCt+IR3kO+7IcnUNXImyJATtSIFHSEZzMK3ZBOyqlSK8M6xB1RqlIyuB23XLKxJG 5naf/FEyvT9fMyibIuvb6xn7vmAbewjrNCk6Y/zi6GDVDgJXPtnBMJFbPgkCyNmpxBAy 4jqLYmSdC5/ivKH3lmg1WMT4n/d4irSl2GYJ+FSVZGicTp6put+cVPm0XeLy5wYeSb57 Z/+Bk700MFa0xKgucQBHq8eNJVvKh3ZKW3e/VWgDJfnZusXgdYrO9Sg1GNbaP34o/OHk L5eQ== X-Received: by 10.49.48.68 with SMTP id j4mr24290qen.13.1383311337759; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.119.166 with SMTP id kv6ls1258256qeb.10.gmail; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.88.2 with SMTP id bc2mr25985veb.37.1383311337235; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x229.google.com (mail-qa0-x229.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k2si1349682qcp.2.2013.11.01.06.08.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::229; Received: by mail-qa0-x229.google.com with SMTP id f11so590213qae.7 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.82.52 with SMTP id f20mr3828294qey.73.1383311336981; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.18.33 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:08:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <82e3500a-a054-43bd-bf9e-9c0e3162d39b@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 08:08:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Officialness, spin-off projects, dialects, communication with the outside world (was: Re: LMW reloaded (lojbo uitki)) From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5dbf4cdac9e104ea1d4417 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Things like "currently proposed experimental cmavo", "BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu", "BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri proposal: And's version" "experimental gadri", etc etc --gejyspa [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mturniansky[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: gmx.de] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --047d7b5dbf4cdac9e104ea1d4417 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Things like "currently proposed experimental cmavo", "BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu", "BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri proposal: And's version" "experimental gadri", etc etc --gejyspa On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > >> LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki's personal plaything. I personally give it no >> imprimatur of officialdom. YMMV >> >> (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experimental) ideas, >> but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.) >> > > How are they labelled, a'u? > > >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk wrote: >> >>> The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I thought >>> is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly different >>> language under the provisional name of La Bangu: >>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obsolete'= ) >>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu >>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang ('Lojban >>> had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?) >>> >>> So, just to get a clear picture: >>> >>> What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')? >>> >>> I *think* it is >>> http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html, >>> and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo. So= , >>> eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} is = not >>> equivalent to *{mi je do broda}. >>> >>> What is the MediaWiki about? >>> >>> I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and >>> continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (as = a >>> part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version of) >>> Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I try= to >>> ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am thankf= ul >>> to Gleki for putting so much work into it.) >>> >>> If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) >>> language, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining th= at >>> what follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be, = is >>> not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org. >>> Just to not confuse the casual reader. (While I have nothing against >>> playing around with dialects, variations in grammar and such=97a living >>> language Lojban shall be=97, I find it particularly confusing to call t= he >>> 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_ or _outdated._) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b5dbf4cdac9e104ea1d4417 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 Things like "currently proposed experimental cmav= o", "BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu", "BPFK gismu Proposal:= mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri proposal: And's version" &q= uot;experimental gadri", etc etc =A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa




On Fri, No= v 1, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com= > wrote:



On Fri, Nov 1, 201= 3 at 12:05 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki= 9;s personal plaything. =A0I personally give it no imprimatur of officialdo= m. =A0YMMV

=A0 (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experi= mental) ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.= )

How are they labelled, = a'u?
=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa



On Mon, Oc= t 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:
The MediaWiki ('LMW'= ;) at lojban.org seems = to imply that what I thought is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and = to promote a slightly different language under the provisional name of La B= angu:
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obs= olete')
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang<= /a> ('Lojban had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does sti= ll, doesn=92t it?)

So, just to get a clear picture:

What is the language promoted = by the LLG ('official Lojban')?

I *think* it is http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.= html, and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xor= lo. So, eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda}= is not equivalent to *{mi je do broda}.

What is the MediaWiki about?

I *thought* it was just a supposedl= y user-friendlier copy and continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wi= ki) chaotic, still (as a part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version= of) Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I tr= y to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am thank= ful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.)

If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) langua= ge, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining that what fo= llows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be, is = not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org. Just to not confuse the cas= ual reader. (While I have nothing against playing around with dialects, var= iations in grammar and such=97a living language Lojban shall be=97, I find = it particularly confusing to call the 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_= or _outdated._)

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--047d7b5dbf4cdac9e104ea1d4417--