Received: from mail-ob0-f190.google.com ([209.85.214.190]:51222) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VcEgt-00005i-Cu for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:13 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f190.google.com with SMTP id uz6sf852655obc.17 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eWXoP+WitNEcgEUA354+5QfX2c7Bnu+emNxSSai2W+k=; b=Jk7YX4c1SSm6CnsSr6rkNyFaOMFB71/lGeRaykwG+7KqVnaJGMl+e+2UYpQwYVMq+y bAnU8QckHuCDSbM0nnX4semvMOvPr7+mB26EvGAUV/tUnmnwhk9wG96lE5nnUZucplwS jVytjxGi0QRQIoe8HRNJXtV/7wkmDzc85djGxZ0/n5zAdM37Rvd0nU4tL019jUpSchby IfD2CZtJHSy75W8/aZ45eMhifydAYJPfbD5tODoaaRJV/dcR5NIcdx1Vg8aRGbuuSiyW TgW/sLQINjfOhg26dw4oWxmU8KkzvowcIhy7fq5v78E4/Kutsy6uZtdrhIozgLkCLaja lYaQ== X-Received: by 10.49.99.37 with SMTP id en5mr69066qeb.8.1383312180687; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.87.38 with SMTP id u6ls529291qez.64.gmail; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.12.67 with SMTP id w3mr962129veb.0.1383312180258; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x232.google.com (mail-qc0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gs8si1752056qcb.0.2013.11.01.06.23.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232; Received: by mail-qc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id x19so2445535qcw.9 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.72.81 with SMTP id l17mr3881203qaj.54.1383312180096; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.18.33 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <82e3500a-a054-43bd-bf9e-9c0e3162d39b@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 08:23:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Officialness, spin-off projects, dialects, communication with the outside world (was: Re: LMW reloaded (lojbo uitki)) From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd74d041bb52804ea1d7711 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bd74d041bb52804ea1d7711 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For migrated pages, yes, but not for the stuff you added, hence .iesk's confusion. But whatever. I already had my two cents in this discussion. --gejyspa On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > LMW is no difference. It retained all those names. > > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> Things like "currently proposed experimental cmavo", "BPFK gismu >> Proposal: gletu", "BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri >> proposal: And's version" "experimental gadri", etc etc >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki's personal plaything. I personally give it no >>>> imprimatur of officialdom. YMMV >>>> >>>> (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experimental) >>>> ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.) >>>> >>> >>> How are they labelled, a'u? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk wrote: >>>> >>>>> The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I >>>>> thought is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly >>>>> different language under the provisional name of La Bangu: >>>>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obsolet= e') >>>>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu >>>>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang ('Lojba= n >>>>> had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?) >>>>> >>>>> So, just to get a clear picture: >>>>> >>>>> What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')? >>>>> >>>>> I *think* it is >>>>> http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html, >>>>> and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo. = So, >>>>> eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} i= s not >>>>> equivalent to *{mi je do broda}. >>>>> >>>>> What is the MediaWiki about? >>>>> >>>>> I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and >>>>> continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (a= s a >>>>> part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version of) >>>>> Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I t= ry to >>>>> ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am than= kful >>>>> to Gleki for putting so much work into it.) >>>>> >>>>> If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) >>>>> language, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining = that >>>>> what follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be= , is >>>>> not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org= . >>>>> Just to not confuse the casual reader. (While I have nothing against >>>>> playing around with dialects, variations in grammar and such=97a livi= ng >>>>> language Lojban shall be=97, I find it particularly confusing to call= the >>>>> 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_ or _outdated._) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7bd74d041bb52804ea1d7711 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 =A0For migrated pages, yes, but not for the stuff you = added, hence .iesk's confusion.

=A0 =A0 But whatever= . =A0I already had my two cents in this discussion.
=A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna &l= t;gleki.is.= my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
LMW is no difference. It re= tained all those names.


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Michael = Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Things like "curre= ntly proposed experimental cmavo", "BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu&qu= ot;, "BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri propo= sal: And's version" "experimental gadri", etc etc =A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa




= On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:05 AM= , Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki= 9;s personal plaything. =A0I personally give it no imprimatur of officialdo= m. =A0YMMV

=A0 (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experi= mental) ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.= )

How are they labelled, = a'u?
=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa



On Mon, Oc= t 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:
The MediaWiki ('LMW'= ;) at lojban.org seems = to imply that what I thought is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and = to promote a slightly different language under the provisional name of La B= angu:
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obs= olete')
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang<= /a> ('Lojban had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does sti= ll, doesn=92t it?)

So, just to get a clear picture:

What is the language promoted = by the LLG ('official Lojban')?

I *think* it is http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.= html, and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xor= lo. So, eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda}= is not equivalent to *{mi je do broda}.

What is the MediaWiki about?

I *thought* it was just a supposedl= y user-friendlier copy and continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wi= ki) chaotic, still (as a part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version= of) Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I tr= y to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am thank= ful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.)

If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) langua= ge, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining that what fo= llows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be, is = not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org. Just to not confuse the cas= ual reader. (While I have nothing against playing around with dialects, var= iations in grammar and such=97a living language Lojban shall be=97, I find = it particularly confusing to call the 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_= or _outdated._)

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