Received: from mail-ea0-f186.google.com ([209.85.215.186]:64251) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VcEq6-0000DO-0m for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:49 -0700 Received: by mail-ea0-f186.google.com with SMTP id q16sf436461ead.23 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FTvPvJ9cI4176AnzDvXqbBe9Xd7PUzuVlIbXCOwbPhk=; b=iPGDtbad36NG1sTljQS4io/ifaWm5zJ3J9aApQC5IVsOI3JR19oPA6+Z0gFoZkfTLp EsZ1GiXNYbxQ9BKEBM4HdeLEBGmXFkNGzvmdlVQF7y/b3ie/kiKSX8DexMoyhECSr7jZ BciSB8BC/DSQpUB3wjBQ4b9f6/6OR8Q/Knx0jvNCKZHY1NXuTomAHlgXKCepndKCrsOn VwoCXZsTw84gtBr1HwGj4ms187f6vT6JV4GWv/e+LXt1lKCfKnNtsrnueCKGAy+EWCZ6 NeTxNhcsqfCEwv2TV78GTKLhbVRX4v7wLg0KE7SjIlX8HCDuKox/G4pKTqofanDiQgEy AVgg== X-Received: by 10.152.36.131 with SMTP id q3mr5662laj.40.1383312750553; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.19.130 with SMTP id f2ls304857lae.25.gmail; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.219.162 with SMTP id pp2mr514728lbc.22.1383312750047; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x232.google.com (mail-we0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n2si118804wie.1.2013.11.01.06.32.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::232; Received: by mail-we0-f178.google.com with SMTP id q59so4038414wes.9 for ; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.240.129 with SMTP id wa1mr2449459wjc.31.1383312749909; Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.41.165 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:32:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <82e3500a-a054-43bd-bf9e-9c0e3162d39b@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:32:29 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Officialness, spin-off projects, dialects, communication with the outside world (was: Re: LMW reloaded (lojbo uitki)) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d1db2125f6004ea1d99b3 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e013d1db2125f6004ea1d99b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Michael Turniansky w= rote: > For migrated pages, yes, but not for the stuff you added, hence .iesk'= s > confusion. > Well, If I thought LMW were ready to use by newbies I'd immediately ask Robin to make it official. But since nobody else is contributing the progress is very slow and I will request that in (+10 years; +infinity). > But whatever. I already had my two cents in this discussion. > --gejyspa > > > > On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> LMW is no difference. It retained all those names. >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: >> >>> Things like "currently proposed experimental cmavo", "BPFK gismu >>> Proposal: gletu", "BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri >>> proposal: And's version" "experimental gadri", etc etc >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Michael Turniansky < >>>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki's personal plaything. I personally give it no >>>>> imprimatur of officialdom. YMMV >>>>> >>>>> (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experimental) >>>>> ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> How are they labelled, a'u? >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> --gejyspa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The MediaWiki ('LMW') at lojban.org seems to imply that what I >>>>>> thought is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and to promote a slightly >>>>>> different language under the provisional name of La Bangu: >>>>>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the >>>>>> 'obsolete') >>>>>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu >>>>>> =96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang ('Lojb= an >>>>>> had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does still, doesn=92t it?) >>>>>> >>>>>> So, just to get a clear picture: >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the language promoted by the LLG ('official Lojban')? >>>>>> >>>>>> I *think* it is >>>>>> http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.html, >>>>>> and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xorlo.= So, >>>>>> eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda} = is not >>>>>> equivalent to *{mi je do broda}. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the MediaWiki about? >>>>>> >>>>>> I *thought* it was just a supposedly user-friendlier copy and >>>>>> continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wiki) chaotic, still (= as a >>>>>> part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version >>>>>> of) Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well= , I try >>>>>> to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am >>>>>> thankful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.) >>>>>> >>>>>> If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) >>>>>> language, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining= that >>>>>> what follows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may b= e, is >>>>>> not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.or= g. >>>>>> Just to not confuse the casual reader. (While I have nothing against >>>>>> playing around with dialects, variations in grammar and such=97a liv= ing >>>>>> language Lojban shall be=97, I find it particularly confusing to cal= l the >>>>>> 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_ or _outdated._) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e013d1db2125f6004ea1d99b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansk= y@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 =A0For migrated pages, = yes, but not for the stuff you added, hence .iesk's confusion.

Well, If I thought LMW were ready to use by newbies I&#= 39;d immediately ask Robin to make it official. But since nobody else is co= ntributing the progress is very slow and I will request that in (+10 years;= +infinity).



=A0 =A0 But whatever. =A0I already had my two cents = in this discussion.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:10= AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wr= ote:
LMW is no difference. It re= tained all those names.


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Michael = Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Things like "curre= ntly proposed experimental cmavo", "BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu&qu= ot;, "BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna" ,"XS gadri propo= sal: And's version" "experimental gadri", etc etc =A0
=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa




= On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:



On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:05 AM= , Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 LMW, (IMHO) is Gleki= 9;s personal plaything. =A0I personally give it no imprimatur of officialdo= m. =A0YMMV

=A0 (OTOH, plenty of pages on the old tiki talk about experi= mental) ideas, but are (for the most part) plainly labelled as nonofficial.= )

How are they labelled, = a'u?
=A0

=A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa



On Mon, Oc= t 28, 2013 at 10:51 AM, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:
The MediaWiki ('LMW'= ;) at lojban.org seems = to imply that what I thought is 'official Lojban' is outdated, and = to promote a slightly different language under the provisional name of La B= angu:
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Obsolete:_joiku (note the 'obs= olete')
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_La_Bangu
=96 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Stub:_Is_Lojban_an_auxlang<= /a> ('Lojban had 6 words for "and" [=85]' =85 it does sti= ll, doesn=92t it?)

So, just to get a clear picture:

What is the language promoted = by the LLG ('official Lojban')?

I *think* it is http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter21.= html, and the rest of CLL, superseded only by confirmed errata, and Xor= lo. So, eg, {lo broda ku joi lo brode} needs the {ku}, and {mi .e do broda}= is not equivalent to *{mi je do broda}.

What is the MediaWiki about?

I *thought* it was just a supposedl= y user-friendlier copy and continuation of the TikiWiki. So, while (as a wi= ki) chaotic, still (as a part of lojban.org) about (the agreed-upon, ie 'official' version= of) Lojban. (By the way, I do find the MediaWiki easier to use [well, I tr= y to ignore some of the scarier add-ons recently installed], and I am thank= ful to Gleki for putting so much work into it.)

If, however, the MediaWiki is about a different (version of the) langua= ge, then we should perhaps put a big sign somewhere explaining that what fo= llows, however more brilliant than 'official Lojban' it may be, is = not the same thing as the language promoted on the rest of lojban.org. Just to not confuse the cas= ual reader. (While I have nothing against playing around with dialects, var= iations in grammar and such=97a living language Lojban shall be=97, I find = it particularly confusing to call the 'prestige dialect' _obsolete_= or _outdated._)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--089e013d1db2125f6004ea1d99b3--