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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:18:30 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] An Interesting Use for a Rafsi
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I'm glad to see that someone else has noticed and is concerned about this
issue. I'm not sure that the proposed solution of rafsi "nar" is better
than simply being careful about what one says, but it should be considered.

I had the same issue in Esperanto (will all NAm-English speakers) a couple
of years ago, and the speaker doing it didn't seem to even understand my
objection or request for clarification.

stevo


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>wrote:

> I first pondered this idea when I noticed that many of us say {.i mi na
> djica lo nu broda}, when really we mean to say {.i mi djica lo nu na
> broda}. Let's suppose I have a child whom I want to be in good health,
> etc., as I should. Then, if that child is playing some dangerous game in
> which he or she might fall, then I should say {.i mi djica lo nu do na
> farlu}, as I do indeed desire something, namely that they not fall. Saying
> that I "don't want them to fall" isn't really accurate. I don't want them
> to fall, sure, but what *do* I want? I want them to not fall. I would find
> myself led to say {.i mi na djica ...} in Lojban due to this malglico
> influence, but I think that we should do our best to avoid it.
>
> Rather than speak in negations like this on top level, it would be more
> accurate to move the negation into the abstraction. But that's not easy
> since it goes against our natural language bias. Let's compromise.
>
> -nar- rafsi {na}
>
> Let's semi-systematically define lujvo using this rafsi as follows.
>
> narbo'e -> brode FA lo su'u naku zo'u ...
>
> Therefore, {nardji lo nu do farlu} means {.i mi djica lo nu naku do
> farlu}, which is more accurately representative of my actual desires than
> to say {.i mi na djica lo nu do farlu}.
>
> I have noticed that some lojbanists use {to'e} or perhaps another NAhE for
> this purpose. I think that this usage is overall inconsistent with the main
> uses of NAhE, since these cnavo are intended to modify the semantics of the
> following selbri. {to'e djica} in that sense doesn't make any sense at all,
> as what is the polar opposite of desire is rather elusive to me. Repulsion?
> Okay, perhaps {to'e djica} is fine then. But it requires in some sense that
> the listener and the speaker agree on the scales at hand. Therefore the
> NAhE solution works only provided such an agreement, whereas the -nar-
> solution functions independently of those semantic agreements.
>
> The -nar- scheme can be applied to other brivla as well giving us
> interesting results.
>
> e.g. {.i mi narju'o lo du'u lo mamta cu te vecnu lo cidja} "I know that
> mom didn't buy food."
>
> In the event that the selbri on the right of -nar- contains no
> abstractions, then we assume to obvious interpretation of -nar- which is to
> negate only the selbri, otherwise done by performing a bridi-final negation.
>
> e.g. {.i mi nardu'a lo plise do} -> {.i mi dunda lo plise do naku}.
>
> All in all, I think that this is a very powerful tool, not to mention that
> it allows is to modify the internal semantics of an abstraction from the
> outside, which is generally not possible.
>
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">I&#39;m glad to see that someone else has noticed and is con=
cerned about this issue. I&#39;m not sure that the proposed solution of raf=
si &quot;nar&quot; is better than simply being careful about what one says,=
 but it should be considered.=A0</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monos=
pace">I had the same issue in Esperanto (will all NAm-English speakers) a c=
ouple of years ago, and the speaker doing it didn&#39;t seem to even unders=
tand my objection or request for clarification.=A0</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monos=
pace">stevo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr">I first pondered this idea when I noticed that many of us =
say {.i mi na djica lo nu broda}, when really we mean to say {.i mi djica l=
o nu na broda}. Let&#39;s suppose I have a child whom I want to be in good =
health, etc., as I should. Then, if that child is playing some dangerous ga=
me in which he or she might fall, then I should say {.i mi djica lo nu do n=
a farlu}, as I do indeed desire something, namely that they not fall. Sayin=
g that I &quot;don&#39;t want them to fall&quot; isn&#39;t really accurate.=
 I don&#39;t want them to fall, sure, but what *do* I want? I want them to =
not fall. I would find myself led to say {.i mi na djica ...} in Lojban due=
 to this malglico influence, but I think that we should do our best to avoi=
d it.<br>


<br>Rather than speak in negations like this on top level, it would be more=
 accurate to move the negation into the abstraction. But that&#39;s not eas=
y since it goes against our natural language bias. Let&#39;s compromise. <b=
r>


<br>-nar- rafsi {na}<br><br>Let&#39;s semi-systematically define lujvo usin=
g this rafsi as follows.<br><br>narbo&#39;e -&gt; brode FA lo su&#39;u naku=
 zo&#39;u ...<br><br>Therefore, {nardji lo nu do farlu} means {.i mi djica =
lo nu naku do farlu}, which is more accurately representative of my actual =
desires than to say {.i mi na djica lo nu do farlu}.<br>


<br>I have noticed that some lojbanists use {to&#39;e} or perhaps another N=
AhE for this purpose. I think that this usage is overall inconsistent with =
the main uses of NAhE, since these cnavo are intended to modify the semanti=
cs of the following selbri. {to&#39;e djica} in that sense doesn&#39;t make=
 any sense at all, as what is the polar opposite of desire is rather elusiv=
e to me. Repulsion? Okay, perhaps {to&#39;e djica} is fine then. But it req=
uires in some sense that the listener and the speaker agree on the scales a=
t hand. Therefore the NAhE solution works only provided such an agreement, =
whereas the -nar- solution functions independently of those semantic agreem=
ents.<br>


<br>The -nar- scheme can be applied to other brivla as well giving us inter=
esting results.<br><br>e.g. {.i mi narju&#39;o lo du&#39;u lo mamta cu te v=
ecnu lo cidja} &quot;I know that mom didn&#39;t buy food.&quot; <br><br>


In the event that the selbri on the right of -nar- contains no abstractions=
, then we assume to obvious interpretation of -nar- which is to negate only=
 the selbri, otherwise done by performing a bridi-final negation.<br><br>


e.g. {.i mi nardu&#39;a lo plise do} -&gt; {.i mi dunda lo plise do naku}.<=
br><br>All in all, I think that this is a very powerful tool, not to mentio=
n that it allows is to modify the internal semantics of an abstraction from=
 the outside, which is generally not possible.<br>


<br>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888=
888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
>

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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