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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 17:49:16 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+g03pMTSV_txTvtPaMaJbbjUy-u2Koa5tV54q-gCg2WPg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] An Interesting Use for a Rafsi
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 5:41 PM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 12:04:58PM +0400, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 11:20 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > I like cats vs. I don't like cats (but I don't dislike them, either)
> vs. I
> > > dislike cats.
> > >
> > > English speakers typically don't consider the middle, non-committal
> > > option. Instead, they interpret "don't X" as "do opposite-of-X".
> > >
> > > Is this the "na'e" vs. "na" distinction of Lojban?
>
> I would like to think that's the difference between {na} and {to'e}.
> {na'e} implies a scale, but most of the time that scale is independent of
> truth values: {mi na'e nelci lo mlatu} in many contexts probably implies
> {mi nelci lo drata danlu} but not {mi to'e nelci lo mlatu}.
>
> > I think {na} should be compared with {na'ei} here. xorxes thought
> otherwise
> > (in bpfk thread). If we agree with his stance then it's all scope those
> > words differ in.
>
> Yay, one more experimental word in the discussion.
>
> Ilmen even explained it on IRC as lu .i zo na'ei smuni simsa zo na li'u
>
> To me it seems to be much closer to {to'e} than {na} though..
> Could you explain the problem this proposed word solves and
> the difference to {na} and {to'e} (in the best case by example)?
> Otherwise I don't get what you are trying to say.
>

According to what xorxes said in bpfk group {na'e} is the same as {na}  but
with a different scope. The author of {na'ei} thought otherwise.

{na} and {na'ei} differ in that {na} (supposedly, at least in Wave lessons)
negates everything to the right of the bridi. na'ei negates only the selbri
following it.


> I like what gleki wrote about this:
>
> > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <
> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> I dont see a problem here .the more  na is to the left
> > >> the more vague the sentence becomes.
>
> So in practice this is malglico and you should watch your tongue,
> but it's no problem really..
>

if someone wants to be more precise they are free to do so. But it's not
worth fixing users' style if that style is smudra and gendra. After all
English sentence "I don't want you to fall" has present tense embedded
whereas {mi nardji lo nu do farlu} doesn't have any tense. So ...  a draw
:P ?


>
>
> Concerning {narbroda}: I can't really say I like it but I see the benefits.
> It moves quite a bit of logical structure to the lexicon and one advantage
> of lojban is that this structure is easy to access without the lexicon.
>
>
> mi'e la .van. mu'o
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 5:41 PM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:me@v4hn.de" target=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 12:04:58PM +0400, Gleki Arxokuna =
wrote:<br>
&gt; On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 11:20 AM, MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:lytlesw@gmail.com">lytlesw@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; &gt; I like cats vs. I don&#39;t like cats (bu=
t I don&#39;t dislike them, either) vs. I<br>
&gt; &gt; dislike cats.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; English speakers typically don&#39;t consider the middle, non-com=
mittal<br>
&gt; &gt; option. Instead, they interpret &quot;don&#39;t X&quot; as &quot;=
do opposite-of-X&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Is this the &quot;na&#39;e&quot; vs. &quot;na&quot; distinction o=
f Lojban?<br>
<br>
</div>I would like to think that&#39;s the difference between {na} and {to&=
#39;e}.<br>
{na&#39;e} implies a scale, but most of the time that scale is independent =
of<br>
truth values: {mi na&#39;e nelci lo mlatu} in many contexts probably implie=
s<br>
{mi nelci lo drata danlu} but not {mi to&#39;e nelci lo mlatu}.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; I think {na} should be compared with {na&#39;ei} here. xorxes thought =
otherwise<br>
&gt; (in bpfk thread). If we agree with his stance then it&#39;s all scope =
those<br>
&gt; words differ in.<br>
<br>
</div>Yay, one more experimental word in the discussion.<br>
<br>
Ilmen even explained it on IRC as lu .i zo na&#39;ei smuni simsa zo na li&#=
39;u<br>
<br>
To me it seems to be much closer to {to&#39;e} than {na} though..<br>
Could you explain the problem this proposed word solves and<br>
the difference to {na} and {to&#39;e} (in the best case by example)?<br>
Otherwise I don&#39;t get what you are trying to say.<br></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>According to what xorxes said in bpfk group {na&#39;e} is th=
e same as {na} =A0but with a different scope. The author of {na&#39;ei} tho=
ught otherwise.</div>
<div><br></div><div>{na} and {na&#39;ei} differ in that {na} (supposedly, a=
t least in Wave lessons) negates everything to the right of the bridi. na&#=
39;ei negates only the selbri following it.</div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
I like what gleki wrote about this:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; &gt; On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I dont see a problem here .the more =A0na is to the left<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the more vague the sentence becomes.<br>
<br>
</div>So in practice this is malglico and you should watch your tongue,<br>
but it&#39;s no problem really..<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>if som=
eone wants to be more precise they are free to do so. But it&#39;s not wort=
h fixing users&#39; style if that style is smudra and gendra. After all Eng=
lish sentence &quot;I don&#39;t want you to fall&quot; has present tense em=
bedded whereas {mi nardji lo nu do farlu} doesn&#39;t have any tense. So ..=
. =A0a draw :P ?</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
Concerning {narbroda}: I can&#39;t really say I like it but I see the benef=
its.<br>
It moves quite a bit of logical structure to the lexicon and one advantage<=
br>
of lojban is that this structure is easy to access without the lexicon.<br>
<br>
<br>
mi&#39;e la .van. mu&#39;o<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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