Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 03:01:13 -0800 (PST)
From: lorxus <coronacoreanici@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban: it's not for babies.
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mi denpa le nu jbocifnu nuzba krefu
.e'o ko dunda

re'i

On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 4:12:33 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote:
>
> Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> > Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the 
> > difference between {cidja} and {citka}. 
>
> That is interesting, since in English, the sound of dj isn't considered 
> a consonant cluster. 
>
> > They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn't 
> > seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for 
> > them. 
> > 
> > Here are the big issues: 
> > 
> > 1.  Every brivla has a consonant clusters.  Consonant clusters are 
> > *hard* for children of this age.  Even when they attempt them, the 
> > usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to 
> > please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!". 
>
> My only suggestion here is a buffered dialect (dEEr-i-bah).  But I'm not 
> sure how easily toddlers could learn that. 
>
> > 2.  OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}.  It freaking 
> > ridiculous, people.  I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences, and 
> > *I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments. 
>
> I totally agree.  The rules we adapted from JCB's algorithm for handling 
> fricatives and affricates, especially in Chinese which was the most 
> heavily weighted source language, and is especially rich in those sounds 
> led to too many c, s, j and z, (and also too many vowel a's) 
>
> But by the time that was clear, remaking the words again was precisely 
> what we couldn't consider doing, even if we could find better rules. 
>
> > That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important 
> > because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language: 
> > Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, you 
> > get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirely 
> > different grammatical category. 
>
> That is true, but I think baby talk dialects are prone to eliminating 
> such conflicting categories.  English is pretty dense in short word 
> space, and also has homonyms of different grammatical categories, but 
> kids still learn it. 
>
> It would be interesting to learn something about Chinese baby talk.  The 
> word space is so dense that they need 4 tones to keep things 
> intelligible, and even then many common words are expressed as a lujvo 
> (compound of 2 or 3 elemental particles that by themselves bear meaning, 
> often the same meaning as the longer word).  Do Chinese kids pick up the 
> tonal qualities early? 
>
> I've heard it said that Russian kids often don't master their language's 
> phonology until age 10, and Michael had one of the common childhood 
> speech impediments at age 6, when he pronounced "Andzhela"s name as 
> "Anzhoya", which I think means that he couldn't control palatalization. 
>   I think that a Russian dialect without palatalization would be just as 
> hard to understand as a toddler's version of Lojban. 
>
> > The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they 
> > choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*.  Even though 
> > they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me. 
> > They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier. 
>
> but dada is a cmene rather than a brivla in most usage (and daddy also, 
> though it can function a a descriptive noun).  The corresponding lojban 
> baby-talk name might be "dib." or plausibly "dir.", or hearkening back 
> to Cinderelwood, "paf." 
>
> "relber: la pavber pu darxi mi doi paf 
>   pavber: la relber pu tikpa mi doi paf" 
>
> lojbab 
>
>
>
> -- 
> Bob LeChevalier    loj...@lojban.org <javascript:>    www.lojban.org<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lojban.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEhToyA3N_h4E_ShCFcHGzk1kV4nA> 
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">mi denpa le nu jbocifnu nuzba krefu<br>.e'o ko dunda<br><b=
r>re'i<br><br>On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 4:12:33 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote:=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bor=
der-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Robin Lee Powell wrote:
<br>&gt; Pro-tip: there is not a toddler in the world that can emit the
<br>&gt; difference between {cidja} and {citka}.
<br>
<br>That is interesting, since in English, the sound of dj isn't considered=
=20
<br>a consonant cluster.
<br>
<br>&gt; They understand the language well enough, and the structure doesn'=
t
<br>&gt; seem to bother them at all, but uttering it is just *so* hard for
<br>&gt; them.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Here are the big issues:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; 1. &nbsp;Every brivla has a consonant clusters. &nbsp;Consonant cl=
usters are
<br>&gt; *hard* for children of this age. &nbsp;Even when they attempt them=
, the
<br>&gt; usually fail; they've been trying to say {dirba} for a while, to
<br>&gt; please me, but it's mostly "DEE-bah!".
<br>
<br>My only suggestion here is a buffered dialect (dEEr-i-bah). &nbsp;But I=
'm not=20
<br>sure how easily toddlers could learn that.
<br>
<br>&gt; 2. &nbsp;OMFG are there too many uses of {c} and {s}. &nbsp;It fre=
aking
<br>&gt; ridiculous, people. &nbsp;I routinely hit tounge-twister sentences=
, and
<br>&gt; *I'm an adult*, with no known speech impediments.
<br>
<br>I totally agree. &nbsp;The rules we adapted from JCB's algorithm for ha=
ndling=20
<br>fricatives and affricates, especially in Chinese which was the most=20
<br>heavily weighted source language, and is especially rich in those sound=
s=20
<br>led to too many c, s, j and z, (and also too many vowel a's)
<br>
<br>But by the time that was clear, remaking the words again was precisely=
=20
<br>what we couldn't consider doing, even if we could find better rules.
<br>
<br>&gt; That last, as latro'a pointed out in IRC, is especially important
<br>&gt; because it means you can't have a baby-talk form of the language:
<br>&gt; Lojban is so densely packed that if you remove almost anything, yo=
u
<br>&gt; get another word, even ignoring that you're suddenly in an entirel=
y
<br>&gt; different grammatical category.
<br>
<br>That is true, but I think baby talk dialects are prone to eliminating=
=20
<br>such conflicting categories. &nbsp;English is pretty dense in short wor=
d=20
<br>space, and also has homonyms of different grammatical categories, but=
=20
<br>kids still learn it.
<br>
<br>It would be interesting to learn something about Chinese baby talk. &nb=
sp;The=20
<br>word space is so dense that they need 4 tones to keep things=20
<br>intelligible, and even then many common words are expressed as a lujvo=
=20
<br>(compound of 2 or 3 elemental particles that by themselves bear meaning=
,=20
<br>often the same meaning as the longer word). &nbsp;Do Chinese kids pick =
up the=20
<br>tonal qualities early?
<br>
<br>I've heard it said that Russian kids often don't master their language'=
s=20
<br>phonology until age 10, and Michael had one of the common childhood=20
<br>speech impediments at age 6, when he pronounced "Andzhela"s name as=20
<br>"Anzhoya", which I think means that he couldn't control palatalization.=
=20
<br>&nbsp; I think that a Russian dialect without palatalization would be j=
ust as=20
<br>hard to understand as a toddler's version of Lojban.
<br>
<br>&gt; The end result is that while they can, in fact, say {dirba}, they
<br>&gt; choose "dada" or "daddy" over {dirba} *every time*. &nbsp;Even tho=
ugh
<br>&gt; they adore me to pieces and have very strong desire to please me.
<br>&gt; They just hugely prefer to use English because it's *far* easier.
<br>
<br>but dada is a cmene rather than a brivla in most usage (and daddy also,=
=20
<br>though it can function a a descriptive noun). &nbsp;The corresponding l=
ojban=20
<br>baby-talk name might be "dib." or plausibly "dir.", or hearkening back=
=20
<br>to Cinderelwood, "paf."
<br>
<br>"relber: la pavber pu darxi mi doi paf
<br>&nbsp; pavber: la relber pu tikpa mi doi paf"
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>--=20
<br>Bob LeChevalier &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" =
gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"v-YxxHFRxSgJ" _originalhref=3D"javascript:">loj...=
@lojban.org</a> &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttp%=
3A%2F%2Fwww.lojban.org&amp;sa=3DD&amp;sntz=3D1&amp;usg=3DAFQjCNEhToyA3N_h4E=
_ShCFcHGzk1kV4nA" target=3D"_blank" _originalhref=3D"http://www.lojban.org"=
>www.lojban.org</a>
<br>President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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