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Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:47:39 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQzzQJ1vFV9rVpWcimgXOYmfmhrLpo4zEHWMVQ_WuufQw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] An Interesting Use for a Rafsi
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  I'd really be loathe to fix a convention of narbo'e meaning something
other than "na brode".  I agree with stevo's assessment that people should
rather  be careful about what they say. (I personally run across this when
translating things that need "bilga na..." constructions from English ("I
shouldn't have another piece of cake"/"You mustn't go in there" ) )

               --gjeyspa


On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 2:20 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't think the position of "na" is relevant here.
> > When someone says "I don't like cats", he usually means "I dislike cats".
> >
> > I like cats vs. I don't like cats (but I don't dislike them, either) vs.
> I
> > dislike cats.
> >
> > English speakers typically don't consider the middle, non-committal
> option.
> > Instead, they interpret "don't X" as "do opposite-of-X".
> >
> > Is this the "na'e" vs. "na" distinction of Lojban?
>
> Not quite - I believe if I understand what you're describing right,
> it's the no'e vs. to'e distinction. no'e means "not X, but not
> opposite-of-X either", while to'e means "opposite-of-X". na'e is "not
> X" but is not obviously also not "opposite-of-X". Those are all in
> NAhE, and together with je'a (the affirmative one) they are the entire
> set of brivla negators. na is a negator of an entire bridi; I believe
> it to be somewhat underspecified in the same way as na'e, but I could
> be misremembering.
>
> So:
>
> mi (je'a) djica lo nu ko'a (je'a) broda - I do want ko'a to broda
> mi no'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I don't have strong wishes about
> whether any broda happens
> mi to'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I want the event of ko'a broda-ing
> not to happen
> mi na'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I don't particularly want ko'a to
> broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative
> mi na djica lo nu ko'a broda - It isn't the case that I want ko'a to
> broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative
> mi djica lo nu ko'a no'e broda - I want ko'a to do something that
> isn't particularly broda-ish but maybe kind of is
> mi djica lo nu ko'a to'e broda - I want ko'a to do the opposite of
> broda-ing
> mi djica lo nu ko'a na'e broda - I want ko'a to do some alternative to
> fully broda-ing
> mi djica lo nu ko'a na broda - I want ko'a not to broda (note that
> "ko'a broda" is a bridi nested within the main one, and the entire
> subordinate bridi is negated rather than just the word "broda")
>
> These are all logically distinct, even if in practice many of them
> will have matching semantics.
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=A0 I&#39;d really be loathe to fix a convention of narbo&=
#39;e meaning something other than &quot;na brode&quot;. =A0I agree with st=
evo&#39;s assessment that people should rather =A0be careful about what the=
y say. (I personally run across this when translating things that need &quo=
t;bilga na...&quot; constructions from English (&quot;I shouldn&#39;t have =
another piece of cake&quot;/&quot;You mustn&#39;t go in there&quot; ) )<div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gjeys=
pa</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Th=
u, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Craig Daniel <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:craigbdaniel@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">craigbdaniel@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 2:=
20 AM, MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com">lytlesw@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>

&gt; I don&#39;t think the position of &quot;na&quot; is relevant here.<br>
&gt; When someone says &quot;I don&#39;t like cats&quot;, he usually means =
&quot;I dislike cats&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I like cats vs. I don&#39;t like cats (but I don&#39;t dislike them, e=
ither) vs. I<br>
&gt; dislike cats.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; English speakers typically don&#39;t consider the middle, non-committa=
l option.<br>
&gt; Instead, they interpret &quot;don&#39;t X&quot; as &quot;do opposite-o=
f-X&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is this the &quot;na&#39;e&quot; vs. &quot;na&quot; distinction of Loj=
ban?<br>
<br>
</div>Not quite - I believe if I understand what you&#39;re describing righ=
t,<br>
it&#39;s the no&#39;e vs. to&#39;e distinction. no&#39;e means &quot;not X,=
 but not<br>
opposite-of-X either&quot;, while to&#39;e means &quot;opposite-of-X&quot;.=
 na&#39;e is &quot;not<br>
X&quot; but is not obviously also not &quot;opposite-of-X&quot;. Those are =
all in<br>
NAhE, and together with je&#39;a (the affirmative one) they are the entire<=
br>
set of brivla negators. na is a negator of an entire bridi; I believe<br>
it to be somewhat underspecified in the same way as na&#39;e, but I could<b=
r>
be misremembering.<br>
<br>
So:<br>
<br>
mi (je&#39;a) djica lo nu ko&#39;a (je&#39;a) broda - I do want ko&#39;a to=
 broda<br>
mi no&#39;e djica lo nu ko&#39;a broda - I don&#39;t have strong wishes abo=
ut<br>
whether any broda happens<br>
mi to&#39;e djica lo nu ko&#39;a broda - I want the event of ko&#39;a broda=
-ing<br>
not to happen<br>
mi na&#39;e djica lo nu ko&#39;a broda - I don&#39;t particularly want ko&#=
39;a to<br>
broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative<br>
mi na djica lo nu ko&#39;a broda - It isn&#39;t the case that I want ko&#39=
;a to<br>
broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative<br>
mi djica lo nu ko&#39;a no&#39;e broda - I want ko&#39;a to do something th=
at<br>
isn&#39;t particularly broda-ish but maybe kind of is<br>
mi djica lo nu ko&#39;a to&#39;e broda - I want ko&#39;a to do the opposite=
 of broda-ing<br>
mi djica lo nu ko&#39;a na&#39;e broda - I want ko&#39;a to do some alterna=
tive to<br>
fully broda-ing<br>
mi djica lo nu ko&#39;a na broda - I want ko&#39;a not to broda (note that<=
br>
&quot;ko&#39;a broda&quot; is a bridi nested within the main one, and the e=
ntire<br>
subordinate bridi is negated rather than just the word &quot;broda&quot;)<b=
r>
<br>
These are all logically distinct, even if in practice many of them<br>
will have matching semantics.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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