Received: from mail-qe0-f63.google.com ([209.85.128.63]:36423) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VnXyC-0001Nj-DR for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:48 -0800 Received: by mail-qe0-f63.google.com with SMTP id 2sf3538172qeb.28 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dZ52hh1RNvf0KzVCLvw9mpF9euZuIiHBz9LCKEPg4/o=; b=Wm/3ryajjfaGsoxoC2nyWed4tQsLvfSJ/Rc9OGXZcxbhkTtQryISC5dYo0wiWgQ2uN LatN6x5fj+7IWbvABGmH+mutsWtraAF6jLHFLL+9w9a5Xw+5CHq45iY0IgKhx0MFX8PX vkZiNpqHW6yKoyXyyqTJDB3b3UaGfBIPcGqJI2oLf9NVZx0AFz6pQCa/W5tEsCwczLyR gxUbRdirzeqD/o3VWmUq8RjXTEKCN5L3GneRtqf8jVPKKqu2Ransvb7mLIxnCWM9jaAA M1pwSJCxtqEmbSJlzBZMhkSELfeKwsvB2lWoQaq01qgK8OAc4OHDh4PB5zqRTN8ZDAWQ LTfQ== X-Received: by 10.49.131.167 with SMTP id on7mr83320qeb.20.1386007898183; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.127.3 with SMTP id nc3ls3367053qeb.9.gmail; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.236.51.9 with SMTP id a9mr30420446yhc.41.1386007897734; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-x22b.google.com (mail-vc0-x22b.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ll7si12015481vdb.0.2013.12.02.10.11.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22b; Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id ik5so8601534vcb.2 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.52.0.142 with SMTP id 14mr26362vde.94.1386007897597; Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:11:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.161.48 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Dec 2013 10:11:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: MorphemeAddict Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 13:11:07 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] An Interesting Use for a Rafsi To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba96d54646d7804ec911c74 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7ba96d54646d7804ec911c74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The problem with English is that the "not" in "shouldn't have" and "mustn't go" should normally be parsed as "should not-have" and "must not-go", but are in fact usually "should-not have" and "must-not go". Only emphatic intonation and pauses get this idea across, and thus it rarely appears in writing. In Esperanto, e.g., it's obvious which is meant: "ne devas iri" vs. "devas ne iri"; Russian (i.a.) shares this, I believe. stevo On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > I'd really be loathe to fix a convention of narbo'e meaning something > other than "na brode". I agree with stevo's assessment that people should > rather be careful about what they say. (I personally run across this when > translating things that need "bilga na..." constructions from English ("I > shouldn't have another piece of cake"/"You mustn't go in there" ) ) > > --gjeyspa > > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Craig Daniel wrote: > >> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 2:20 AM, MorphemeAddict >> wrote: >> > I don't think the position of "na" is relevant here. >> > When someone says "I don't like cats", he usually means "I dislike >> cats". >> > >> > I like cats vs. I don't like cats (but I don't dislike them, either) >> vs. I >> > dislike cats. >> > >> > English speakers typically don't consider the middle, non-committal >> option. >> > Instead, they interpret "don't X" as "do opposite-of-X". >> > >> > Is this the "na'e" vs. "na" distinction of Lojban? >> >> Not quite - I believe if I understand what you're describing right, >> it's the no'e vs. to'e distinction. no'e means "not X, but not >> opposite-of-X either", while to'e means "opposite-of-X". na'e is "not >> X" but is not obviously also not "opposite-of-X". Those are all in >> NAhE, and together with je'a (the affirmative one) they are the entire >> set of brivla negators. na is a negator of an entire bridi; I believe >> it to be somewhat underspecified in the same way as na'e, but I could >> be misremembering. >> >> So: >> >> mi (je'a) djica lo nu ko'a (je'a) broda - I do want ko'a to broda >> mi no'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I don't have strong wishes about >> whether any broda happens >> mi to'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I want the event of ko'a broda-ing >> not to happen >> mi na'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I don't particularly want ko'a to >> broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative >> mi na djica lo nu ko'a broda - It isn't the case that I want ko'a to >> broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative >> mi djica lo nu ko'a no'e broda - I want ko'a to do something that >> isn't particularly broda-ish but maybe kind of is >> mi djica lo nu ko'a to'e broda - I want ko'a to do the opposite of >> broda-ing >> mi djica lo nu ko'a na'e broda - I want ko'a to do some alternative to >> fully broda-ing >> mi djica lo nu ko'a na broda - I want ko'a not to broda (note that >> "ko'a broda" is a bridi nested within the main one, and the entire >> subordinate bridi is negated rather than just the word "broda") >> >> These are all logically distinct, even if in practice many of them >> will have matching semantics. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7ba96d54646d7804ec911c74 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The problem with English is that the "not" in &quo= t;shouldn't have" and "mustn't go" should normally b= e parsed as "should not-have" and "must not-go", but ar= e in fact usually "should-not have" and "must-not go". = Only emphatic intonation and pauses get this idea across, and thus it rarel= y appears in writing.=A0
In= Esperanto, e.g., it's obvious which is meant: "ne devas iri"= vs. "devas ne iri"; Russian (i.a.) shares this, I believe.=A0
stevo


On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Michael Turniansky <<= a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail= .com> wrote:
=A0 I'd really be loathe to fix a convention of narbo&= #39;e meaning something other than "na brode". =A0I agree with st= evo's assessment that people should rather =A0be careful about what the= y say. (I personally run across this when translating things that need &quo= t;bilga na..." constructions from English ("I shouldn't have = another piece of cake"/"You mustn't go in there" ) )
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gjeys= pa


On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Craig Daniel <cr= aigbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 2:20 AM, Morphe= meAddict <lytlesw= @gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think the position of "na" is relevant here.
> When someone says "I don't like cats", he usually means = "I dislike cats".
>
> I like cats vs. I don't like cats (but I don't dislike them, e= ither) vs. I
> dislike cats.
>
> English speakers typically don't consider the middle, non-committa= l option.
> Instead, they interpret "don't X" as "do opposite-o= f-X".
>
> Is this the "na'e" vs. "na" distinction of Loj= ban?

Not quite - I believe if I understand what you're describing righ= t,
it's the no'e vs. to'e distinction. no'e means "not X,= but not
opposite-of-X either", while to'e means "opposite-of-X".= na'e is "not
X" but is not obviously also not "opposite-of-X". Those are = all in
NAhE, and together with je'a (the affirmative one) they are the entire<= br> set of brivla negators. na is a negator of an entire bridi; I believe
it to be somewhat underspecified in the same way as na'e, but I could be misremembering.

So:

mi (je'a) djica lo nu ko'a (je'a) broda - I do want ko'a to= broda
mi no'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I don't have strong wishes abo= ut
whether any broda happens
mi to'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I want the event of ko'a broda= -ing
not to happen
mi na'e djica lo nu ko'a broda - I don't particularly want ko&#= 39;a to
broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative
mi na djica lo nu ko'a broda - It isn't the case that I want ko'= ;a to
broda, and may or may not have strong feelings about the alternative
mi djica lo nu ko'a no'e broda - I want ko'a to do something th= at
isn't particularly broda-ish but maybe kind of is
mi djica lo nu ko'a to'e broda - I want ko'a to do the opposite= of broda-ing
mi djica lo nu ko'a na'e broda - I want ko'a to do some alterna= tive to
fully broda-ing
mi djica lo nu ko'a na broda - I want ko'a not to broda (note that<= br> "ko'a broda" is a bridi nested within the main one, and the e= ntire
subordinate bridi is negated rather than just the word "broda")
These are all logically distinct, even if in practice many of them
will have matching semantics.

--
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--
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