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Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 07:23:46 -0800 (PST)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Alice essay
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Is Fuzzy aware that the book translated as la .alis is Alice? =A0His "criti=
cisms" suggest that the translation is much better than might have been exp=
ected even from xorxes. =A0Explaining how this was achieved would be an int=
eresting essay indeed.


________________________________
 From: Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Alice essay
=20

I don=92t know how to write an essay but I am halfway through reading the
text in Lojban.

From what I can say so far is that the text has many, many mistakes. I
have made a personal list of this while reading the text; At some
point, I think, I just gave up counting.

Here is a summary of what I=92ve found so far:
- A few simple spelling mistakes.
- =93sai=94 is used in awkward places sometimes, like after a =93na=94. It
=A0 parses, but the meaning is undefined according to CLL
- the strange construction =93po'onai=94 is used somewhere, its meaning is
=A0 undefined AFAIK
- The ungrammatical construction =93ka'enai=94 is used several times
- There are multiple cases of sumti raising:
=A0 =A0 =93oiro=92a oiro=92a mi lerci=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 x1 is for an event, not a rabbit
=A0 =A0 =93ko ko ciksi=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 x2 does not allow a person
=A0 =A0 =93ei mi mi kajde lo=92e since (=85)=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 x1 and x3 are for events, not for persons or animals
=A0 =A0 =93oi ko mi na fanza=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 x1 expects an event, not a person
=A0 =A0 =A0 Suggestion: =93oi ko fi mi na fazgau=94
=A0 =A0 =93le reda fenki=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 Not sure, probably =93two crazy ones=94 are meant, but =93fenki=
=94 is for
=A0 =A0 =A0 crazy events, not for crazy persons
=A0 =A0 =93i la alis nasai jinvi le du=92u la=92e di=92u cu je=92urja=92o=
=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 x1 should be an agent. You also see the awkward =93nasai=94
=A0 =A0 =A0 construction in action here.
- It seems the word =93da=94 was sometimes intended to be used over a
=A0 sentence=92s border, which is not directly allowed in Lojban
- the quotation marks for the songs in chapter xa are missing
- =93krefu=94 is written =93KREFU=94 (in all-caps) on two occasions. Lojban
=A0 does not allow writing like that
- a LOT of lujvo (see appendix) were coined, many of them do not have
=A0 dictionary entries yet and are not declared nonce words with =93za'e=94=
.
=A0 Sorry, this is NOT the sane way to introduce lujvo into the language.
=A0 Lujvo are intended to have a fixed definition as contrast to tanru.
=A0 But a lujvo is pointless if it isn=92t defined; you could as well have
=A0 used a tanru. Things become complicated if someone not knowing about
=A0 the alis text writes a definition for one of these lujvo; it may or
=A0 may not be in the sense of the text. Sadly, that may already have
=A0 happened for some lujvo. This problem has a quick fix: Add =93za'e=94 i=
n
=A0 front of all lujvo in question. If that seems awkward to you, fall
=A0 back to tanru. And no, I am not talking about obvious lujvo with SE,
=A0 NAhE, NA, etc.
- I found 3 undefined fu'ivla so far. The same problems as for undefined
=A0 lujvo apply.
- For some reason, the text uses =93=92=94 instead ob =93'=94. The CLL says=
 =93'=94
=A0 is used and never uses =93=92=94.

Additionally, some experimental words are used: I noticed =93gumri=94 and
=93mu'ei=94 so far. You may think about experimental words what you want,
but you can=92t truthfully call your text to be in Lojban if you use any,
but rather in a dialect of Lojban (maybe call it =93experimental
Lojban=94?).


So long,
Wuzzy.

=3D=3D Appendix =3D=3D
Incomplete list of undefined brivla:
- jivni=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (=93jinvi=94?)
- titpa=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (???)
- pikca=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (=93pikci=94?)
- sarju=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (???)
- tordi=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (=93tordu=94?)
- damre=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (???)
- dorni=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (=93donri=94?)
- jukpe=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (=93jukpa=94?)
- gunkybifce
- re'azbil
- kakcmo
- cfafanmo
- benxai
- flara'a
- kixsku
- xersku
- jetsku
- cfacku
- dzikla
- clazengau
- sipygau
- fegygau
- galvi'a
- titydja
- geirkrixa
- zbikre
- dricmo
- ricmei
- gerpanzi
- proki'u
- nolpratra
- cabycerni
- sezmerli
- jaurjanci
- jmaji'o
- vruva'u
- gapfa'a
- purcedra=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (sounds like =93history=94; not sure)
- kalsygau
- tolmo'izu'e
- xersmadi
- daupro
- tolmilxe
- tolfadni
- tolmorji
- dutselfarbi'o
- karbi'o
- brebi'o
- xrebi'o
- sipfru
- fagystizu
- gerpanzi=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (dog-child?)
- posycu'a
- sincycau=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=20
- fityti'i
- stuzrlongitudi=A0=A0=A0 (longitude?)
- stuzrlatitudi=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (latitude?)
- rirxyxirma=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (hippo? but which species?)
- cipnrxakuila=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (eagle? but which species?)
- tcicymlatu=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 (obviously that=92s the chesire cat, this o=
ne
=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 may be an exception)

--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Is Fuzzy aware t=
hat the book translated as la .alis is <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">=
Alice</span>? &nbsp;His "criticisms" suggest that the translation is much b=
etter than might have been expected even from xorxes. &nbsp;Explaining how =
this was achieved would be an interesting essay indeed.</div><div><br></div=
>  <div style=3D"font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; =
font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york'=
, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font=
 size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</spa=
n></b> Wuzzy &lt;almikes@aol.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bol=
d;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December 4, 2013 7:50 AM<br> <b><spa=
n
 style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Alice essay<=
br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
I don=92t know how to write an essay but I am halfway through reading the<b=
r>text in Lojban.<br><br>From what I can say so far is that the text has ma=
ny, many mistakes. I<br>have made a personal list of this while reading the=
 text; At some<br>point, I think, I just gave up counting.<br><br>Here is a=
 summary of what I=92ve found so far:<br>- A few simple spelling mistakes.<=
br>- =93sai=94 is used in awkward places sometimes, like after a =93na=94. =
It<br>&nbsp; parses, but the meaning is undefined according to CLL<br>- the=
 strange construction =93po'onai=94 is used somewhere, its meaning is<br>&n=
bsp; undefined AFAIK<br>- The ungrammatical construction =93ka'enai=94 is u=
sed several times<br>- There are multiple cases of sumti raising:<br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; =93oiro=92a oiro=92a mi lerci=94<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; x1 is for =
an event, not a rabbit<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =93ko ko ciksi=94<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; x2 does not allow a person<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =93ei mi mi kajde
 lo=92e since (=85)=94<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; x1 and x3 are for events, no=
t for persons or animals<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =93oi ko mi na fanza=94<br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; x1 expects an event, not a person<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Su=
ggestion: =93oi ko fi mi na fazgau=94<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =93le reda fenki=94<=
br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Not sure, probably =93two crazy ones=94 are meant, =
but =93fenki=94 is for<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; crazy events, not for crazy =
persons<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =93i la alis nasai jinvi le du=92u la=92e di=92u c=
u je=92urja=92o=94<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; x1 should be an agent. You also =
see the awkward =93nasai=94<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; construction in action =
here.<br>- It seems the word =93da=94 was sometimes intended to be used ove=
r a<br>&nbsp; sentence=92s border, which is not directly allowed in Lojban<=
br>- the quotation marks for the songs in chapter xa are missing<br>- =93kr=
efu=94 is written =93KREFU=94 (in all-caps) on two occasions.
 Lojban<br>&nbsp; does not allow writing like that<br>- a LOT of lujvo (see=
 appendix) were coined, many of them do not have<br>&nbsp; dictionary entri=
es yet and are not declared nonce words with =93za'e=94.<br>&nbsp; Sorry, t=
his is NOT the sane way to introduce lujvo into the language.<br>&nbsp; Luj=
vo are intended to have a fixed definition as contrast to tanru.<br>&nbsp; =
But a lujvo is pointless if it isn=92t defined; you could as well have<br>&=
nbsp; used a tanru. Things become complicated if someone not knowing about<=
br>&nbsp; the alis text writes a definition for one of these lujvo; it may =
or<br>&nbsp; may not be in the sense of the text. Sadly, that may already h=
ave<br>&nbsp; happened for some lujvo. This problem has a quick fix: Add =
=93za'e=94 in<br>&nbsp; front of all lujvo in question. If that seems awkwa=
rd to you, fall<br>&nbsp; back to tanru. And no, I am not talking about obv=
ious lujvo with SE,<br>&nbsp; NAhE, NA, etc.<br>- I found 3 undefined
 fu'ivla so far. The same problems as for undefined<br>&nbsp; lujvo apply.<=
br>- For some reason, the text uses =93=92=94 instead ob =93'=94. The CLL s=
ays =93'=94<br>&nbsp; is used and never uses =93=92=94.<br><br>Additionally=
, some experimental words are used: I noticed =93gumri=94 and<br>=93mu'ei=
=94 so far. You may think about experimental words what you want,<br>but yo=
u can=92t truthfully call your text to be in Lojban if you use any,<br>but =
rather in a dialect of Lojban (maybe call it =93experimental<br>Lojban=94?)=
.<br><br><br>So long,<br>Wuzzy.<br><br>=3D=3D Appendix =3D=3D<br>Incomplete=
 list of undefined brivla:<br>- jivni&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (=93jinvi=94?)<br>- titpa&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (???)<br>- pikca&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (=93pikci=94?)<br>- sarju&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (???)<br>- tordi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (=93tordu=94?)<br>- damre&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (???)<br>- dorni&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (=93donri=94?)<br>- jukpe&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (=93jukpa=94?)<br>- gunk=
ybifce<br>- re'azbil<br>- kakcmo<br>- cfafanmo<br>- benxai<br>- flara'a<br>=
- kixsku<br>- xersku<br>- jetsku<br>- cfacku<br>- dzikla<br>- clazengau<br>=
- sipygau<br>- fegygau<br>- galvi'a<br>- titydja<br>- geirkrixa<br>- zbikre=
<br>- dricmo<br>- ricmei<br>- gerpanzi<br>- proki'u<br>- nolpratra<br>- cab=
ycerni<br>- sezmerli<br>- jaurjanci<br>- jmaji'o<br>- vruva'u<br>- gapfa'a<=
br>- purcedra&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (sounds like =93history=
=94; not sure)<br>- kalsygau<br>- tolmo'izu'e<br>- xersmadi<br>- daupro<br>=
- tolmilxe<br>- tolfadni<br>- tolmorji<br>- dutselfarbi'o<br>- karbi'o<br>-=
 brebi'o<br>- xrebi'o<br>- sipfru<br>- fagystizu<br>-
 gerpanzi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (dog-child?)<br>- posycu'a<b=
r>- sincycau&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>- fityti'i<br>- stuzr=
longitudi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (longitude?)<br>- stuzrlatitudi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (latitude?)<br>- rirxyxirma&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; (hippo? but which species?)<br>- cipnrxakuila&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (eagle? but which species?)<br>- tcicymlatu&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (obviously that=92s the chesire cat, this one<br>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; may be an exceptio=
n)<br><br>-- <br>You received this message because you are subscribed to th=
e Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop =
receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsu=
bscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsu=
bscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a
 ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegro=
ups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group at <a href=3D"htt=
p://groups.google.com/group/lojban" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.=
com/group/lojban</a>.<br>For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.=
google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/grou=
ps/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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