Received: from mail-qa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.216.62]:62842) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VoEKM-0000ut-TH for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:42 -0800 Received: by mail-qa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id w5sf2158145qac.27 for ; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rXh6jlD4gKTqDiAa1QaZfHy1adfkp4zqhK+u2oWo4UM=; b=NKt/2rCQl0Kk3CdU4UrXO65d+cHjz9KdaBGqKbpRpQ3grTItCUbRvrm9h6ikU1P5oX vKhZBpEJky9Tth0xhQ5BBCTDHYrAJchDDfk4dORRdC+6DYeuS0NT+CfNVH+o2Xf90NVp PcHXkOrc0ubOGAnzVjwT7Frnyw0p45fm3b0WeuB7H06f5rOmlRfvIag1VoA8Sa1zvgbW ye+JtOIZSJxGltji4OeRk7rEOVrM85A+XXgKHZAJhBnyvD2aWzmMdlESc3st4z5bTSnp UOcU3uWjDmZQPRXF1kxCPizdxzZNE1qerOFSFk+oYKVpsZqy6LSBlcMXm0/3za5aixF2 FkfQ== X-Received: by 10.49.58.129 with SMTP id r1mr21072qeq.31.1386170720681; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.121.98 with SMTP id lj2ls377405qeb.45.gmail; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.196.145 with SMTP id im17mr784145vec.38.1386170720125; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-x229.google.com (mail-vc0-x229.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z8si247732qcn.0.2013.12.04.07.25.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229; Received: by mail-vc0-x229.google.com with SMTP id hu19so11524464vcb.14 for ; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.52.64.140 with SMTP id o12mr1286938vds.40.1386170719946; Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:25:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.221.41.65 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Dec 2013 07:24:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20131204145028.65d8aa5f@aol.com> References: <529EA55C.40800@kli.org> <20131204145028.65d8aa5f@aol.com> From: ".arpis." Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:24:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Alice essay To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3079bcc05c7e8a04ecb70572 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --20cf3079bcc05c7e8a04ecb70572 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable doi la'oi wuzzy I don=92t know how to write an essay but I am halfway through reading the > text in Lojban. > > From what I can say so far is that the text has many, many mistakes. I > have made a personal list of this while reading the text; At some > point, I think, I just gave up counting. > > Here is a summary of what I=92ve found so far: > - A few simple spelling mistakes. > Good find. > - =93sai=94 is used in awkward places sometimes, like after a =93na=94. I= t > parses, but the meaning is undefined according to CLL > This is explicitly allowed according to the CLL: You can also utter a scale indicator without a specific emotion. This is often used in the language: in order to emphasize a point about which you feel strongly, you mark what you are saying with the scale indicator =93cai= =94. You could also indicate that you don=92t care using =93cu'i=94 by itself. (http://dag.github.io/cll/13/4/) > - the strange construction =93po'onai=94 is used somewhere, its meaning i= s > undefined AFAIK > Here, you are correct that it is not officially defined, however it is mentioned in the relevant BPFK section: Add {po'o nai} ("among others") and {po'o cu'i} ("for one", "not excluding others"). (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Highlight+Discursives) > - The ungrammatical construction =93ka'enai=94 is used several times > This is a perfectly legitimate construction meaning "not able" When attached to tenses and modals (see Chapter 10), the =93nai=94 suffix usually indicates a contradictory negation of the tagg= ed bridi. (http://dag.github.io/cll/15/7/) > - There are multiple cases of sumti raising: > While I agree that sumti raising is poor lojban form, there is not consensus within the community. > - It seems the word =93da=94 was sometimes intended to be used over a > sentence=92s border, which is not directly allowed in Lojban > Again, I agree that this is poor form, but some within the community treat it as implied but not explicit connection. > - the quotation marks for the songs in chapter xa are missing > Again , I agree with you, but again, I think it's not as damning as you seem to imply. > - =93krefu=94 is written =93KREFU=94 (in all-caps) on two occasions. Lojb= an > does not allow writing like that > Oh, come on. Lojban also does not allow writing in Zbalermorna or Srilermorna, and the Cyrillic and Tengwar orthographies are unofficial; this is a really small nit to pick. > - a LOT of lujvo (see appendix) were coined, many of them do not have > dictionary entries yet and are not declared nonce words with =93za'e=94= . > Overuse of {za'e} would ruin the work; also, many of the words you mention are *not* nonces, since it is perfectly reasonable to expect other works to use them in the same way. > And no, I am not talking about obvious lujvo with SE, > NAhE, NA, etc. > But you are talking about obvious lujvo with {-gau}, {-bi'o}, and {tol-}. Many of the words you're complaining about are "easy lujvo" (see [1]and [2] ), which are standard constructions; e.g. you can't seriously expect {tolmilxe} to be misunderstood as anything but {to'e milxe}, and it is unnecessary to put each such construction into a dictionary (you might also want to read the case against a lujvo dictionary ). > - I found 3 undefined fu'ivla so far. The same problems as for undefined > lujvo apply. > Stage 3 fu'ivla, are exactly *for* coining on the fly: "Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easily on the fly, as lujvo can, because the procedure for forming them always guarantees a word that cannot violate any of the rules." ( http://dag.github.io/cll/4/7/) > - For some reason, the text uses =93=92=94 instead ob =93'=94. The CLL sa= ys =93'=94 > is used and never uses =93=92=94. > > Additionally, some experimental words are used: I noticed =93gumri=94 and > =93mu'ei=94 so far. You may think about experimental words what you want, > but you can=92t truthfully call your text to be in Lojban if you use any, > but rather in a dialect of Lojban (maybe call it =93experimental > Lojban=94?). > This is a reasonable complaint; lojbab will not learn experimental words. That said, I think it is not so bad. --=20 mu'o mi'e .arpis. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --20cf3079bcc05c7e8a04ecb70572 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi la'oi wuzzy

I = don=92t know how to write an essay but I am halfway through reading the
text in Lojban.

From what I can say so far is that the text has many, many mistakes. I
have made a personal list of this while reading the text; At some
point, I think, I just gave up counting.

Here is a summary of what I=92ve found so far:
- A few simple spelling mistakes.

Good = find.
=A0
- =93sai=94 is used in awkward places sometimes, like after a =93na=94. It<= br> =A0 parses, but the meaning is undefined according to CLL
<= div>
This is explicitly allowed according to the CLL:

=
You can also utter a scale indicator withou= t a specific emotion. This is often used in the language: in order to emphasize a point about which=20 you feel strongly, you mark what you are saying with the scale indicator =93cai=94. You could also indicate that you don=92t care using =93cu'i= =94 by=20 itself.

(http://dag= .github.io/cll/13/4/)
=A0
- the strange construction =93po'onai=94 is used somewhere, its meaning= is
=A0 undefined AFAIK

Here, you are corre= ct that it is not officially defined, however it is mentioned in the releva= nt BPFK section:

Add {po'o nai} = ("among others") and {po'o cu'i} ("for one", &q= uot;not excluding others").

(http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Highlight+Discursiv= es)
=A0
- The ungrammatical construction =93ka'enai=94 is used several times

This is a perfectly legitimate constructi= on meaning "not able"

When attached to tenses and modals (see Chapter 10), the =93nai=94 suffix usually indicates a contradic= tory negation of the tagged bridi.
(http://dag.github.io/cll/15/7/)
=A0
- There are multiple cases of sumti raising:

While I agree that sumti raising is poor lojban form, there is not co= nsensus within the community.
=A0
- It seems the word =93da=94 was sometimes intended to be used over a
=A0 sentence=92s border, which is not directly allowed in Lojban

Again, I agree that this is poor form, but some w= ithin the community treat it as implied but not explicit connection.
=A0
- the quotation marks for the songs in chapter xa are missing

Again , I agree with you, but again, I think it'= s not as damning as you seem to imply.
=A0
- =93krefu=94 is written =93KREFU=94 (in all-caps) on two occasions. Lojban=
=A0 does not allow writing like that

Oh= , come on. Lojban also does not allow writing in Zbalermorna or Srilermorna= , and the Cyrillic and Tengwar orthographies are unofficial; this is a real= ly small nit to pick.
=A0
- a LOT of lujvo (see appendix) were coined, many of them do not have
=A0 dictionary entries yet and are not declared nonce words with =93za'= e=94.

Overuse of {za'e} would ruin = the work; also, many of the words you mention are not nonces, since = it is perfectly reasonable to expect other works to use them in the same wa= y.
=A0
=A0 And no, I am not talking about obvious lujvo with SE,
=A0 NAhE, NA, etc.

But you are talking = about obvious lujvo with {-gau}, {-bi'o}, and {tol-}. Many of the words= you're complaining about are "easy lujvo"=20 (see=A0[1] and [2]), which=20 are standard constructions; e.g. you can't seriously expect {tolmilxe}= =20 to be misunderstood as anything but {to'e milxe}, and it is unnecessary= =20 to put each such construction into a dictionary (you might also want to=20 read the case against a lujvo dictionary).
=A0
- I found 3 undefined fu'ivla so far. The same problems as for undefine= d
=A0 lujvo apply.

Stage 3 fu'ivla, are exactly = for coining on the fly:=20 "Stage 3 fu'ivla can be made easily on the fly, as lujvo can, beca= use=20 the procedure for forming them always guarantees a word that cannot violate any of the rules." (http://= dag.github.io/cll/4/7/)
=A0
- For some reason, the text uses =93=92=94 instead ob =93'=94. The CLL = says =93'=94
=A0 is used and never uses =93=92=94.

Additionally, some experimental words are used: I noticed =93gumri=94 and =93mu'ei=94 so far. You may think about experimental words what you wan= t,
but you can=92t truthfully call your text to be in Lojban if you use any, but rather in a dialect of Lojban (maybe call it =93experimental
Lojban=94?).

This is a reasonable compl= aint; lojbab will not learn experimental words. That said, I think it is no= t so bad.
=A0
--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.=

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