Received: from mail-qe0-f55.google.com ([209.85.128.55]:40417) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Voadg-0000Ux-Tl for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:15:00 -0800 Received: by mail-qe0-f55.google.com with SMTP id cy11sf4003897qeb.20 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hbbvChd2IOkLuhEeD0nEm76Du0u68oyWteAg1xaphTo=; b=PV/2Jvgvcza0KnoDLF4WrAcu77WHp7neZXVTqoTacZ1bR22+ywzdU9aeVKlUNjpHUL 8HoUGM9k/0BnELOLonRvc8gP3y2bgkFBoJWnX76VnmIfHD07qmMWpfpIZYxw/9wBmJO4 VKVzWw++2HNwpvROrcrPgTTX6yCJ2/8FYnSd97Be1BgF76yX+NV+AntBXwWkdIPo19C/ TO9k9NCmd6p9kA7jIJ2QdWVseCOQpAq40BGVb6fGuZroqSyyRA//sIqLP7ys6LPZSsn+ Ta206z80pIhyK2DFGJLukWEO/z0tExXh5yhg5n+4tSc3VzuvfOClOTpkvCOKVuo7TyGJ qD6w== X-Received: by 10.49.1.132 with SMTP id 4mr570033qem.11.1386256486595; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.37.163 with SMTP id z3ls947550qej.1.gmail; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.112.195 with SMTP id is3mr28517539veb.29.1386256486206; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.42.202 with SMTP id t10msqae; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 06:43:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.1.104 with SMTP id 8mr12061qel.22.1386254596119; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 06:43:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 06:43:15 -0800 (PST) From: wolf.finster@gmail.com To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: Subject: [lojban] Confused about Abstractions MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: wolffinster@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5275_5472256.1386254595594" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_5275_5472256.1386254595594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, at first learning abstractions seemed pretty straight forward and it=20 all made sense. Understanding the concept and examples was no problem and= =20 everything appeared clear. But when I started making up my own sentences I= =20 realized nothing was clear at all. My test sentences were multiple na=C3=AFve translations of =E2=80=9CThe dog= bites the=20 person=E2=80=9D: *Attempt 1 using tanru:* *1)* lo barda gerku =E2=86=92 lo barda gerku ku batci lo prenu So this could be paraphrased : The big type of dog bites the person *Attempt 2 using embedded selbri:* *2) a.)* lo gerku ku barda =E2=86=92 lo gerku ku barda cu batci lo prenu While this could be paraphrased as (malglice inbound I guess^^): The dog=20 that is big bites the person *Attempt 3 using 2-times embedded selbri:* =E2=80=9COr is that even grammatical? Maybe it needs to be this...=E2=80=9D= I wondered: *2) b.)* lo lo gerku ku barda ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is a big one= =20 bites the person =E2=80=9COr maybe I need to use nu kei!=E2=80=9D *Attempt 4 using 1-time embedded selbri + abstraction* *3)* lo nu lo gerku ku barda vau kei ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is=20 big bites the person =E2=80=9CAfter all I would need to in a sentence like this, wouldn't I? And= if so,=20 I don't see a difference between these two, as to why the same construction= =20 should not be used in the former.=E2=80=9D, was the next thing I thought: *4)* mi viska lo nu lo gerku ku barda vau kei ku batci lo prenu kei ku - I= =20 see the dog that is big bite the person. =E2=80=9CWhich should mean the same thing as 'mi viska lo nu lo barda gerku= ku=20 batci lo prenu kei'... or should it?=E2=80=9D So yea, I am massively confused right now. Could somebody please help tidy= =20 up this mess in my head? ^^ =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_5275_5472256.1386254595594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So, at firs= t learning abstractions seemed pretty straight forward and it all made sense. Understanding the concept and examples was no problem and everything appeared clear. But when I started making up my own sentences I realized nothing was clear at all.


My test sentences were multiple na=C3=AFve translations of =E2=80=9CThe dog bites the person=E2=80= =9D:


Attempt 1 using tanru= :


<= span style=3D"line-height: 18px;">1) lo barda gerku =E2=86=92 lo barda gerku ku batci lo prenu


So this could be paraphrased : The big type of dog bites the person


Attempt 2 using embed= ded selbri:


<= span style=3D"line-height: 18px;">2) a.) lo gerku ku barda =E2=86=92 lo gerku ku barda cu batci lo prenu


While this could be paraphrased as (malglice inbound I guess^^): The dog that is big bites the person


Attempt 3 using 2-tim= es embedded selbri:


=E2=80=9COr is that even grammatical? Maybe it needs to be this...=E2=80=9D I wondered:


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm">2) b.) lo lo gerku ku = barda ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is a big one bites the person


=E2=80=9COr maybe I need= to use nu kei!=E2=80=9D


=

Attempt 4 using 1-time em= bedded selbri + abstraction


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm">3) lo nu lo gerku ku b= arda vau kei ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is big bites the person


=E2=80=9CAfter all I wou= ld need to in a sentence like this, wouldn't I? And if so, I don't see a difference between these two, as to why the same construction should not be used in the former.=E2=80=9D, was the next thing I thought:


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm">4) mi viska lo nu lo g= erku ku barda vau kei ku batci lo prenu kei ku - I see the dog that is big bite the person.


=E2=80=9CWhich should me= an the same thing as 'mi viska lo nu lo barda gerku ku batci lo prenu kei'... or should it?=E2=80=9D



So yea, I am massively confused right now. Could somebody please help tidy up this mess in my head? ^^



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