Received: from mail-vc0-f190.google.com ([209.85.220.190]:35819) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vob7L-0000fK-08 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:39 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f190.google.com with SMTP id hv10sf4681791vcb.27 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8raFmjnDzNumYkPnqRN+rOOGMM4FBaLMC+18NDQwKOQ=; b=Osu6ZWFUZFA54PQV2E4yv8Cct82fyEltdIrFc1+7aEkqUQk32PViQAjorJVKMlnQ1K k+SrAE/UjUiTlYa0kJ+kd+sHhAOghhkuhmhXd4w12TaMQU7c4CkBacj+vGQMx3HhU+nb GP6fNSjwRKNUtETLPzL2fjlolL36q35C0WADSkF94b0mzSSCCWdmoacC+NXm07y6fuQj Z4neAMo2gUqpXubUJ61+OOe7GGvgGRi4vFHEHUAJDNVLVkzn/aoxjlTxyPwR/B1HowJY bkBY6ukwqAkudsuzGtYueLmhROl/NFRPB7fZymivZHisWUMSPpxzA5F/u3IHrEz4c/LQ u1AA== X-Received: by 10.49.1.104 with SMTP id 8mr26434qel.22.1386258324655; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:24 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.2.69 with SMTP id 5ls900172qes.98.gmail; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:24 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.52.236.227 with SMTP id ux3mr13227783vdc.5.1386258324033; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qc0-x22e.google.com (mail-qc0-x22e.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z8si565391qcn.0.2013.12.05.07.45.23 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e; Received: by mail-qc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id n7so3693812qcx.33 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.54.135 with SMTP id q7mr78816538qag.45.1386258323922; Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.19.193 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:45:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 10:45:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Confused about Abstractions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3034cf6eb3804eccb6a05 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c3034cf6eb3804eccb6a05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 9:43 AM, wrote: > So, at first learning abstractions seemed pretty straight forward and it > all made sense. Understanding the concept and examples was no problem and > everything appeared clear. But when I started making up my own sentences = I > realized nothing was clear at all. > > > My test sentences were multiple na=C3=AFve translations of =E2=80=9CThe d= og bites the > person=E2=80=9D: > (you left out "big" here) > > *Attempt 1 using tanru:* > > > *1)* lo barda gerku =E2=86=92 lo barda gerku ku batci lo prenu > > > So this could be paraphrased : The big type of dog bites the person > > > This sentence is orrect, and sayswhat you want it to say... > *Attempt 2 using embedded selbri:* > > > *2) a.)* lo gerku ku barda =E2=86=92 lo gerku ku barda cu batci lo prenu > > > While this could be paraphrased as (malglice inbound I guess^^): The dog > that is big bites the person > > > "lo gerku ku barda" is already a sentence, exactly equivalent to "lo gerku cu barda" or "lo gerku ku cu barda". barda" It reads "the dog is big". Remember that "ku" is merely the terminator to the "lo..." (think of them as parentheses if you wish, "(lo gerku ku) barda" Since the barda isn't part of a sumti, it gets interpreted as a bridi. Therefore, you can't add another selbri to it. If you want to say "the dog that is big" you want "lo gerku poi barda". It is a relative clause (see chapter 8 of the grammar) "lo gerku poi gerku [ku'o] cu batci lo prenu" > *Attempt 3 using 2-times embedded selbri:* > > > =E2=80=9COr is that even grammatical? Maybe it needs to be this...=E2=80= =9D I wondered: > > > *2) b.)* lo lo gerku ku barda ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is a big > one bites the person > > > This one is at least grammatical. It means "the big thing that is associated with the dog bites the person" > =E2=80=9COr maybe I need to use nu kei!=E2=80=9D > > > *Attempt 4 using 1-time embedded selbri + abstraction* > > > *3)* lo nu lo gerku ku barda vau kei ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is > big bites the person > > > This reads "the event of the-dog-being-big is biting a person" Unfortunately, actions don't bite. > =E2=80=9CAfter all I would need to in a sentence like this, wouldn't I? A= nd if so, > I don't see a difference between these two, as to why the same constructi= on > should not be used in the former.=E2=80=9D, was the next thing I thought: > > > *4)* mi viska lo nu lo gerku ku barda vau kei ku batci lo prenu kei ku - > I see the dog that is big bite the person. > > This is not grammatical at all "I see the dog that is big bite the person" is "mi viska lo nu lo gerku poi barda [ku'o] [ku] cu batci lo prenu" > > =E2=80=9CWhich should mean the same thing as 'mi viska lo nu lo barda ger= ku ku > batci lo prenu kei'... or should it?=E2=80=9D > > > > So yea, I am massively confused right now. Could somebody please help tid= y > up this mess in my head? ^^ > > > In summary, read chapter 8 of the grammar to understand relative clause= s. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c3034cf6eb3804eccb6a05 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 9:43 AM, <wolf.finster@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

So, at first learning abstractions seemed pretty straight forward and it all made sense. Understanding the concept and examples was no problem and everything appeared clear. But when I started making up my own sentences I realized nothing was clear at all.


My test sentences were multiple na=C3=AFve translations of =E2=80=9CThe dog bites the person=E2=80= =9D:


(you left out "big"= ; here)
=C2=A0


Attempt 1 using tanru:=


<= span style=3D"line-height:18px">1) lo barda gerku =E2=86=92 lo barda gerku ku batci lo prenu


So this could be paraphrased : The big type of dog bites the person



=C2= =A0 This sentence is orrect, and sayswhat you want it to say...
= =C2=A0

Attempt 2 using embedd= ed selbri:


<= span style=3D"line-height:18px">2) a.) lo gerku ku barda =E2=86=92 lo gerku ku barda cu batci lo prenu


While this could be paraphrased as (malglice inbound I guess^^): The dog that is big bites the person


<= /div>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "lo gerku ku barda= " is already a sentence, exactly equivalent to "lo gerku cu barda= " or "lo gerku ku cu barda". =C2=A0 barda" =C2=A0It rea= ds "the dog is big". Remember that "ku" is merely the t= erminator to the "lo..." (think of them as parentheses if you wis= h, "(lo gerku ku) barda" =C2=A0Since the barda isn't part of = a sumti, it gets interpreted as a bridi. =C2=A0Therefore, you can't add= another selbri to it. =C2=A0If you want to say "the dog that is big&q= uot; you want "lo gerku poi barda". =C2=A0It is a relative clause= (see chapter 8 of the grammar) "lo gerku poi gerku [ku'o] cu batc= i lo prenu"

Attempt 3 using 2-time= s embedded selbri:


=E2=80=9COr is that even grammatical? Maybe it needs to be this...=E2=80=9D I wondered:


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm">2) b.) lo lo gerku ku b= arda ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is a big one bites the person



=C2=A0 This one is at least grammatical. =C2=A0It mea= ns "the big thing that is associated with the dog bites the person&quo= t;=C2=A0

=E2=80=9COr maybe I need = to use nu kei!=E2=80=9D


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm">Attempt 4 using 1-time embe= dded selbri + abstraction


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm">3) lo nu lo gerku ku ba= rda vau kei ku batci lo prenu - the dog that is big bites the person


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This reads "the event of the-dog-being-bi= g is biting a person" =C2=A0Unfortunately, actions don't bite.

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CAfter all I woul= d need to in a sentence like this, wouldn't I? And if so, I don't see a difference between these two, as to why the same construction should not be used in the former.=E2=80=9D, was the next thing I thought:


<= p lang=3D"en-US" style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm">4) mi viska lo nu lo ge= rku ku barda vau kei ku batci lo prenu kei ku - I see the dog that is big bite the person.


=C2= =A0 This is not grammatical at all
=C2=A0 "I see the dog tha= t is big bite the person" is "mi viska lo nu lo gerku poi barda [= ku'o] [ku] cu batci lo prenu"=C2=A0


=E2=80=9CWhich should mea= n the same thing as 'mi viska lo nu lo barda gerku ku batci lo prenu kei'... or should it?=E2=80=9D



So yea, I am massively confused right now. Could somebody please help tidy up this mess in my head? ^^


=C2=A0 In summary, read chapter 8 of the grammar to un= derstand relative clauses.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --g= ejyspa
=C2=A0

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