Received: from mail-fa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.161.62]:33394) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VpH1C-0007zY-FO for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:30:05 -0800 Received: by mail-fa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id v1sf152805fav.7 for ; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xAF9+h9YsKabs1+Vv3/3zSj8jB/R+YiZzL13vty5Udk=; b=oD+j286+ZlSMsVrgLSUGW1k5RQ9Ff+qLLAQM1sjI2vOZrpj7HvKQI2Pw15hH4yquoc +ykSXViikns60ZkfGood7c6btZlU5W2B1nvObjtjP7ogy3QuLysJsrcEvcZiEqVdYF2M PqAp74IjPzPg1mM8uf/CenhLqQRbmW5znFmrdc8UOHbywynyl2ms31aDgSHoo1zEls9T 34b3QCyHgGTjhATpHMvkg5HL/CYCn/1uEqoAT8HlYrgeDbKRAhfEuwuyfjJhdh6IzN3w VbErvuUA093HS6mudnr1ErXH2HcjbD4XKsP/xsStfj5wSf5ZXzwrLPUh3lYm/X9Bx/Xf HzsA== X-Received: by 10.180.11.102 with SMTP id p6mr56223wib.18.1386419391790; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.73.12 with SMTP id h12ls254181wiv.49.gmail; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.210.244 with SMTP id mx20mr3378686wic.6.1386419391011; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s19si97194wik.0.2013.12.07.04.29.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231; Received: by mail-wg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x12so1682561wgg.4 for ; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.60.103 with SMTP id g7mr60371502wjr.37.1386419390926; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Dec 2013 04:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Dec 2013 04:29:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20131207131200.418e9b34@aol.com> References: <529EA55C.40800@kli.org> <20131204145028.65d8aa5f@aol.com> <20131206074058.524db1e8@aol.com> <20131207131200.418e9b34@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 16:29:50 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Alice essay From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86cfbc4e574004ecf0eb19 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b86cfbc4e574004ecf0eb19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wuzzy are u satisfied with the quality of the translation? When i read it i wanted to make different fixes. What about you ? On Dec 7, 2013 4:12 PM, "Wuzzy" wrote: > On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 09:44:15 -0500 > Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > > - =93KREFU=94 is still used and still wrong=97wheather I am a nitpick= er or > > > not. This has nothing to do with alternative orthographies, since > > > the text uses the standard alphabet. And the word is in all-caps > > > for no apparent reason. What does =93KREFU=94, in contrast of =93kref= u=94, > > > even mean? > > > > > > > In this case {KREFU} is supposed to be a metalinguistic comment; the > > fact that it is strangely written makes that more clear than if it > > had been written {krefu}. > Well, is this some new unwritten rule that all-caps text in Lojban > means =93metalinguistic comment=94? I think Lojban already has words wor > that (=93sei=94 and =93to'o=94 iirc), so I don=92t see what this rule > adds to Lojban. > > Also, how is the reader who is unaware of this rule supposed > to know this? Guessing? I did not know this rule and I also coudln=92t > guess the purpose. > > There is also =93KO MI PINXE=94. This has an entirely different > =93justification=94 which does make even less sense to me. I refuted thos= e > =93justifications=94 in a respone to xorxes. > > > - =93lu=94=85=93li'u=94 still missing. Damning or not, not using the = quotes > > > changes the sense of the sentences. Try to read the text aloud, > > > maybe you=92ll see (or hear) the problem here. Indentation other othe= r > > > typographic conventions should never replace words in Lojban. > > > > > > > While I would have used quotes there, but I'm not going to argue with > > xorxes when it comes to stylistic choices. > How can this be a matter of style? In my eyes it is simply wrong to > omit quotes where quotes actually belong to. > If you read the text to someone aloud the listener doesn=92t hear the > indentation and therefore doesn=92t hear the quotes which are not there. > Since in spoken form, the length of pauses and intonation is > meaningless in Lojban, it is impossible to know that quotes belong here. > The resulting text has either a different sense or becomes > ungrammatical. > And as a =93style issue=94 (which it isn=92t) it is not even used > consistently. The other indentations use quotes but this section > doesn=92t. Why this inconsistence? > > > Also, it's overreaching to say that typographical conventions should > > _never_ replace words; think of a webpage with sidebars and menus, for > > example. A more compelling statement would be that they should never > > replace words in straight-line text, which one could easily argue > > this is (were the song in a LaTeX figure, for example, it would be > > harder to argue). > Okay, that=92s right. On the other hand, translating interfaces of any > kind into Lojban is another beast. There a lot of open questions > and clearly some kind of convention has to arise at some day. But it > would be an interesting and challenging beast. ;-) > > -- > Wuzzy > XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de > E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b86cfbc4e574004ecf0eb19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wuzzy are u satisfied with the quality of the translation? W= hen i read it i wanted to make different fixes. What about you ?

On Dec 7, 2013 4:12 PM, "Wuzzy" <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 09:44:15 -0500
Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gma= il.com> wrote:
> > - =93KREFU=94 is still used and still wrong=97wheather I am a nit= picker or
> > not. This has nothing to do with alternative orthographies, since=
> > the text uses the standard alphabet. And the word is in all-caps<= br> > > for no apparent reason. What does =93KREFU=94, in contrast of =93= krefu=94,
> > even mean?
> >
>
> In this case {KREFU} is supposed to be a metalinguistic comment; the > fact that it is strangely written makes that more clear than if it
> had been written {krefu}.
Well, is this some new unwritten rule that all-caps text in Lojban
means =93metalinguistic comment=94? I think Lojban already has words wor that (=93sei=94 and =93to'o=94 iirc), so I don=92t see what this rule adds to Lojban.

Also, how is the reader who is unaware of this rule supposed
to know this? Guessing? I did not know this rule and I also coudln=92t
guess the purpose.

There is also =93KO MI PINXE=94. This has an entirely different
=93justification=94 which does make even less sense to me. I refuted those<= br> =93justifications=94 in a respone to xorxes.
> > - =93lu=94=85=93li'u=94 still missing. Damning or not, not us= ing the quotes
> > changes the sense of the sentences. Try to read the text aloud, > > maybe you=92ll see (or hear) the problem here. Indentation other = other
> > typographic conventions should never replace words in Lojban.
> >
>
> While I would have used quotes there, but I'm not going to argue w= ith
> xorxes when it comes to stylistic choices.
How can this be a matter of style? In my eyes it is simply wrong to
omit quotes where quotes actually belong to.
If you read the text to someone aloud the listener doesn=92t hear the
indentation and therefore doesn=92t hear the quotes which are not there. Since in spoken form, the length of pauses and intonation is
meaningless in Lojban, it is impossible to know that quotes belong here. The resulting text has either a different sense or becomes
ungrammatical.
And as a =93style issue=94 (which it isn=92t) it is not even used
consistently. The other indentations use quotes but this section
doesn=92t. Why this inconsistence?

> Also, it's overreaching to say that typographical conventions shou= ld
> _never_ replace words; think of a webpage with sidebars and menus, for=
> example. A more compelling statement would be that they should never > replace words in straight-line text, which one could easily argue
> this is (were the song in a LaTeX figure, for example, it would be
> harder to argue).
Okay, that=92s right. On the other hand, translating interfaces of any
kind into Lojban is another beast. There a lot of open questions
and clearly some kind of convention has to arise at some day. But it
would be an interesting and challenging beast. ;-)

--
Wuzzy
XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--047d7b86cfbc4e574004ecf0eb19--