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Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 07:34:58 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj0HMy0evBjLa3wOhb5z-RbQGDbuzS_eZne5fOSDhDaRrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=93ko_pinxe_mi=94_picture_=28was=3A_Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_Ali?=
	=?windows-1252?Q?ce_essay=29?=
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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I don't see why .xorxes. is being asked to explain himself. Translation is
not an easy task, especially with works of art.

The rules for written Lojban are extremely loose and very simple. Regarding
specifically your issue with capitalization, Lojban /doesn't care/ about it
except for marking non-penultimate stress; {krefu}, {KREfu}, {KREFU}, etc.
are the same word. Using capitalization for visual purposes that do not
affect the meaning of the text grammatically or semantically are not
"clearly against the rules" for the simple reason that the rules don't have
anything to say on the matter, and they shouldn't. Further, with the recent
in comparison to the writing of la.alis. use of accents instead of capitals
to mark non-standard stress, the case of lerfu is made nearly irrelevant
where jbogerna is concerned.

.xorxes. was and is well within his artistic license in making la.alis.. If
you have disagreements as to his artistic choices, you're more than welcome
to make your own translation.


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:28:28 -0200
> Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> > BTW, this is not the only (or the first) use of all-caps in the text.
> > The labels that Alice reads, KO MI PINXE and KO MI CITKA are also
> > written in all-caps. In this case not just because the original does
> > that, but also because there is a DRINK ME in one of the pictures and
> > I thought that made for a better match between text and picture.
> So the first argument says it=92s in all-caps in English, it has to in
> Lojban, too. This is a strange argument. By extension, we could also
> start every Lojbanic sentence with a capital letter because in the
> English version, every sentence happens to be starting with a capital
> letter as well, despite this is clearly against the rules.
>
> I defeat the second argument by drawing a new picture for you :-). I
> have changed the picture a little bit so the label does not read =93DRINK
> ME=94 but =93ko pinxe mi=94. I am not a very good artist, but I tried my =
best.
> You find the PNG image in the attachment.
>
> If you=92re interested, I can also upload the XCF file for The GIMP and
> also an image for =93ko mi pinxe=94. I uploaded =93ko pinxe me=94 because=
 it
> slightly looks better in my opinion.
>
> Lastly, the rules for which you write random words in all-caps seem to
> be more or less random and inconsistent. From another e-mail I read that
> =93KREFU=94 was justified because it was a =93metalinguistic comment=94.
>
>
>
> --
> Wuzzy
> XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
> E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>I don&#39;t see why .xorxes. is being asked to e=
xplain himself. Translation is not an easy task, especially with works of a=
rt.<br><br></div>The rules for written Lojban are extremely loose and very =
simple. Regarding specifically your issue with capitalization, Lojban /does=
n&#39;t care/ about it except for marking non-penultimate stress; {krefu}, =
{KREfu}, {KREFU}, etc. are the same word. Using capitalization for visual p=
urposes that do not affect the meaning of the text grammatically or semanti=
cally are not &quot;clearly against the rules&quot; for the simple reason t=
hat the rules don&#39;t have anything to say on the matter, and they should=
n&#39;t. Further, with the recent in comparison to the writing of la.alis. =
use of accents instead of capitals to mark non-standard stress, the case of=
 lerfu is made nearly irrelevant where jbogerna is concerned.<br>
<br></div>.xorxes. was and is well within his artistic license in making la=
.alis.. If you have disagreements as to his artistic choices, you&#39;re mo=
re than welcome to make your own translation.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Wuzzy <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">al=
mikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:28:28 -0200<br>
Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; BTW, this is not the only (or the first) use of all-caps in the text.<=
br>
&gt; The labels that Alice reads, KO MI PINXE and KO MI CITKA are also<br>
&gt; written in all-caps. In this case not just because the original does<b=
r>
&gt; that, but also because there is a DRINK ME in one of the pictures and<=
br>
&gt; I thought that made for a better match between text and picture.<br>
So the first argument says it=92s in all-caps in English, it has to in<br>
Lojban, too. This is a strange argument. By extension, we could also<br>
start every Lojbanic sentence with a capital letter because in the<br>
English version, every sentence happens to be starting with a capital<br>
letter as well, despite this is clearly against the rules.<br>
<br>
I defeat the second argument by drawing a new picture for you :-). I<br>
have changed the picture a little bit so the label does not read =93DRINK<b=
r>
ME=94 but =93ko pinxe mi=94. I am not a very good artist, but I tried my be=
st.<br>
You find the PNG image in the attachment.<br>
<br>
If you=92re interested, I can also upload the XCF file for The GIMP and<br>
also an image for =93ko mi pinxe=94. I uploaded =93ko pinxe me=94 because i=
t<br>
slightly looks better in my opinion.<br>
<br>
Lastly, the rules for which you write random words in all-caps seem to<br>
be more or less random and inconsistent. From another e-mail I read that<br=
>
=93KREFU=94 was justified because it was a =93metalinguistic comment=94.<br=
>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Wuzzy<br>
XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de">Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de</a><br>
E-Mail: <a href=3D"mailto:wuzzy2@mail.ru">wuzzy2@mail.ru</a><br>
<br>
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com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o =
mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi=
.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father=
. :D )<br>

</div>

<p></p>

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