Received: from mail-vc0-f185.google.com ([209.85.220.185]:61267) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VpJ0w-0000cp-Iw for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:59 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f185.google.com with SMTP id hu8sf515959vcb.12 for ; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=n5RUsHgGxCgXfAdxBEGLSVvlQtZYxx0wdE1IxiwOt4I=; b=MOmzkkKcNJe5RpxxpO8hkv6GBtbHh8y5fK7SHCIDr/hzH0Zqha6SnsBpMYg9dm6hIn hpUqBi38tFLEXlK6NDDdQvzBxonJw/f/FQBkRQ6rWrAh2XtUdrN+z4i8GYNcnf00LIzU HvQhM3Epl1MqTAGLdET9kxhjBTZTbL6Z28XbkBrYYnpcG4e1BDDFdPDZgj+CB4ucZTOr oDpuM4Ht4jPkW919S7ubI6wqnx+0aDO2pIQE5EiG+6HporVYKCwAqoK+cIY2fZvVaNPZ 5yKqs5ac5QhqWTsCmMYkdAQblr7TxUP5MCjwv2BZiGxGqzMUKyqnAZWdTsPSB3szDt93 HtPg== X-Received: by 10.51.17.103 with SMTP id gd7mr28845igd.14.1386427064274; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.36.7 with SMTP id m7ls899701igj.21.gmail; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.17.101 with SMTP id n5mr3142634igd.2.1386427063867; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si453753qcj.3.2013.12.07.06.37.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d; Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id oz11so2044081veb.4 for ; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.186.198 with SMTP id fm6mr1591151vec.16.1386427062131; Sat, 07 Dec 2013 06:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.221.5.69 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Dec 2013 06:37:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20131207130449.31f09ce6@aol.com> References: <529EA55C.40800@kli.org> <20131204145028.65d8aa5f@aol.com> <20131206074058.524db1e8@aol.com> <20131207130449.31f09ce6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:37:42 -0200 Message-ID: Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_=93ko_pinxe_mi=94_picture_=28was=3A_Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_Ali?= =?windows-1252?Q?ce_essay=29?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6772088bda5f04ecf2b47d X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b6772088bda5f04ecf2b47d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Wuzzy wrote: > On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:28:28 -0200 > Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > BTW, this is not the only (or the first) use of all-caps in the text. > > The labels that Alice reads, KO MI PINXE and KO MI CITKA are also > > written in all-caps. In this case not just because the original does > > that, but also because there is a DRINK ME in one of the pictures and > > I thought that made for a better match between text and picture. > So the first argument says it=92s in all-caps in English, it has to in > Lojban, too. This is a strange argument. That's not quite the argument though. There's no "has to" in translation, there are always compromises. The original has: "[...] a paper label, with the words 'DRINK ME' beautifully printed on it in large letters." You could say that the fact that the original uses all-caps, even though it's against the usual practice in English, is irrelevant and should not be reflected in the translation, or you could say that the author had his reasons for using all-caps and thus reflect that in the translation. The text even mentions "large letters". > > I defeat the second argument by drawing a new picture for you :-). I > have changed the picture a little bit so the label does not read =93DRINK > ME=94 but =93ko pinxe mi=94. I am not a very good artist, but I tried my = best. > You find the PNG image in the attachment. > > If you=92re interested, I can also upload the XCF file for The GIMP and > also an image for =93ko mi pinxe=94. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications for the use of altered illustrations are, probably not a problem in this case. The edition that I have in Spanish uses the original unaltered illustration with the words in English. I don't think it's common practice to alter illustrations like that in published translations. > I uploaded =93ko pinxe me=94 because it > slightly looks better in my opinion. > I like moving pronouns in front of the selbri whenever possible. Lastly, the rules for which you write random words in all-caps seem to > be more or less random and inconsistent. From another e-mail I read that > =93KREFU=94 was justified because it was a =93metalinguistic comment=94. > I don't think I was following any rules in choosing all-caps for those words. It was just the choice I made at the time. It's not necessarily the best compromise, but there you are. Personally I think it's a very trivial issue. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b6772088bda5f04ecf2b47d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:28:28 -0200
Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gma= il.com> wrote:
> BTW, this is not the only (or the first) use of all-caps in the text.<= br> > The labels that Alice reads, KO MI PINXE and KO MI CITKA are also
> written in all-caps. In this case not just because the original does > that, but also because there is a DRINK ME in one of the pictures and<= br> > I thought that made for a better match between text and picture.
So the first argument says it=92s in all-caps in English, it has to in
Lojban, too. This is a strange argument.

T= hat's not quite the argument though. There's no "has to" = =A0in translation, there are always compromises. The original has:

"[...] a paper label, with the w= ords 'DRINK ME'=A0beautifully printed on i= t in large letters."

You co= uld say that the fact that the original uses all-caps, even though it's= against the usual practice in English, is irrelevant and should not be ref= lected in the translation, or you could say that the author had his reasons= for using all-caps and thus reflect that in the translation. The text even= mentions "large letters".=A0

=A0

I defeat the second argument by drawing a new picture for you :-). I
have changed the picture a little bit so the label does not read =93DRINK ME=94 but =93ko pinxe mi=94. I am not a very good artist, but I tried my be= st.
You find the PNG image in the attachment.

If you=92re interested, I can also upload the XCF file for The GIMP and
also an image for =93ko mi pinxe=94.

I'= ;m not sure what the legal ramifications for the use of altered illustratio= ns are, probably not a problem in this case. The edition that I have in Spa= nish uses the original unaltered illustration with the words in English. I = don't think it's common practice to alter illustrations like that i= n published translations.=A0

=A0
I uploaded =93ko pinxe= me=94 because it
slightly looks better in my opinion.

I = like moving pronouns in front of the selbri whenever possible.

Lastly, the rules for which you write random words in all-caps seem to
be more or less random and inconsistent. From another e-mail I read that =93KREFU=94 was justified because it was a =93metalinguistic comment=94.

I don't think I was following any rul= es in choosing all-caps for those words. It was just the choice I made at t= he time. It's not necessarily the best compromise, but there you are. P= ersonally I think it's a very trivial issue.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

=A0

--
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