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Subject: Re: [lojban] Lexicon Valley: Will Learning a "Logical" Language Make
 You Think More Logically?
References: <CAO7bV+g6riAz880nJTdmro2n64vifO_6NLtm_0XzymtB4dLU0w@mail.gmail.com> <6B0E2E0A-583C-476A-A5C7-5689558074D9@yahoo.com> <4208092.5cvoIqyKzE@caracal> <8DE8F95D-81FF-466B-9E74-C78ECBCFDCD7@yahoo.com>
From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:14:26 -0600
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 Content preview:  The Finn test sounds less like the Whorf Hypothesis and more
    like Whorf the insurance investigator and the article on the dangers of empty
    oil drums. Both seem based on morphology rather than syntax, for example.
    And the difference in language learning may be evidence for cultural other
    than linguistic conditioning. Then dozen ways of saying "and" in Lojban are
    mostly transformation ally determined variants of truth functional "and",
    not different concepts, and similarly for '"if" and the score of "or"s. Lack
    of gender seems to have had disappointingly little effect on sexism. Number
    has mixed reports. Not that either has much to say about the Whorf Hypothesis.
    [...] 
 
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The Finn test sounds less like the Whorf Hypothesis and more like Whorf the=
 insurance investigator and the article on the dangers of empty oil drums. =
 Both seem based on morphology rather than syntax, for example.  And the di=
fference in language learning may be evidence for cultural other than lingu=
istic conditioning.
Then dozen ways of saying "and" in Lojban are mostly transformation ally de=
termined variants of truth functional "and", not different concepts, and si=
milarly for '"if" and the score of "or"s.  Lack of gender seems to have had=
 disappointingly little effect on sexism.  Number has mixed reports.  Not t=
hat either has much to say about the Whorf Hypothesis.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 12, 2013, at 7:16, "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hintikka tells about the effort involved in getting the minimal passing g=
rade in Swedish in Schools in Finland.
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 22:56, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
>=20
>> On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 14:43:41 John E. Clifford wrote:
>>> Well, it has the history somewhat skewed and almost all the usual error=
s
>>> about the Whorf Hypothesis, but a decent sketch of what most people and
>>> Wikipedia think this is all about.  And no, logical languages don't mak=
e ou
>>> more logical nor does the hypothesis nor JCB in his saner moments claim
>>> they would.
>>=20
>> I've read of an actual test of the hypothesis - not a set-up experiment,=
 but=20
>> an observation of two existing groups of people. There is a noticeable=
=20
>> difference in the kinds of industrial accidents that Swedish-speaking Fi=
nns and=20
>> Finnish-speaking Finns get into; it was traced to the different ways the=
 two=20
>> languages encode spatiotemporal ideas. Finns who learned one language at=
 home=20
>> are required to learn the other in school (except in =C5land), so it's n=
ot just=20
>> knowing the language that makes the difference, but learning it first.
>>=20
>> Lojban has at least ten ways of saying "and", several ways of saying "if=
", a=20
>> large set of specific prepositions, both spatial and temporal tenses, an=
d full=20
>> clusivity. On the other hand, it lacks grammatical number and gender. Wh=
at=20
>> effect would learning Lojban as one's first language have on the mind?
>>=20
>> Pierre
>> --=20
>> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
>>=20
>> --=20
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>=20
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