Received: from mail-bk0-f59.google.com ([209.85.214.59]:56254) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vr8BC-0006iT-FB for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:28:11 -0800 Received: by mail-bk0-f59.google.com with SMTP id mx11sf225703bkb.4 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LRnBFC0ssfiOJVx1gCF5YhikO/Mq4sWXdtYG+O7ATPw=; b=y9VCCm09APx3HVCGUaqZEBpJs20wLEv4qKYfGyfVb9Zi1pJxiFMh8owQZmqt4aTBGN HESEn5P5ACtQQN0GfGsQP+/xGUJAb1mTlOdNtr0LliJU/j18PRRNp02+0dd+h7Us6b/A SZVqGJ77gm2O3bWDvlfy4UI8LN/JkpnQRg90apOgkNA2IUFKPo1RViKIk7lRn9tunMBC AyJdBq/1iHYySvB/AraBZI/516Q5S1IXgXcV9GJr4t+GsZ+mKjdVRKJ5G3w3ZHn3Tkpz 00x8CSkG0ZclBpDd8rMroXhSLyTZFMIYh7MWsh55kZJk2iBPzgP7rQDxNak7T0QCXhxD Jiig== X-Received: by 10.180.80.200 with SMTP id t8mr355557wix.20.1386862070913; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.93.69 with SMTP id cs5ls365344wib.19.gmail; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.216.131 with SMTP id g3mr4973330eep.2.1386862069904; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x243.google.com (mail-we0-x243.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::243]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f7si125479wib.1.2013.12.12.07.27.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::243 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::243; Received: by mail-we0-f195.google.com with SMTP id u56so153304wes.10 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.37.69 with SMTP id w5mr17045167wij.53.1386862069789; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:27:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4208092.5cvoIqyKzE@caracal> References: <6B0E2E0A-583C-476A-A5C7-5689558074D9@yahoo.com> <4208092.5cvoIqyKzE@caracal> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:27:49 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lexicon Valley: Will Learning a "Logical" Language Make You Think More Logically? From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::243 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f502e8a05b8ea04ed57fd6b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f502e8a05b8ea04ed57fd6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 14:43:41 John E. Clifford wrote: > > Well, it has the history somewhat skewed and almost all the usual error= s > > about the Whorf Hypothesis, but a decent sketch of what most people and > > Wikipedia think this is all about. And no, logical languages don't mak= e > ou > > more logical nor does the hypothesis nor JCB in his saner moments claim > > they would. > > I've read of an actual test of the hypothesis - not a set-up experiment, > but > an observation of two existing groups of people. There is a noticeable > difference in the kinds of industrial accidents that Swedish-speaking > Finns and > Finnish-speaking Finns get into; it was traced to the different ways the > two > languages encode spatiotemporal ideas. Finns who learned one language at > home > are required to learn the other in school (except in =C3=85land), so it's= not > just > knowing the language that makes the difference, but learning it first. > > Lojban has at least ten ways of saying "and" I wonder what would users of zasni gerna say? the latter mostly demolished the difference between A, JA, GUhA, GIhA, ZIhE. , several ways of saying "if" Again we can argue that simple {zo'u} functioning as "if" can be as vague as English "if". i fau lo nu do cpedu kei mi klama i ganai do cpedu gi mi klama i lo nu do cpedu zo'u mi klama , a > large set of specific prepositions that are just some gismu being compressed (which is clearly shown in the lack of BAI for fi'o kansa [and that's why I proposed {ka'ai=3Dfi'o kansa}]= ). , both spatial and temporal tenses They say Quechua also perceived the world in spatio-temporal dualism. , and full > clusivity. mi'a vs. mi'o? I dont know why this scheme was chosen when English "we" is absolutely logical: we =3D (personal) The speakers/writers, or the speaker/writer and at least one other person. [and that's why I proposed {mi'ai} for it] > On the other hand, it lacks grammatical number and gender. But this is absolutely not unique. You can test this without Lojban. No he/she in Turkish, no number and tense in Chinese. And on the other side you don't have Japanese politeness markers in Lojban. I can translate Russian "=D0=B2=D1=8B" as {do .io} but not sure about "=D1= =82=D1=8B". > What > effect would learning Lojban as one's first language have on the mind? > But ba'a we'll see that soon. In any case many questions can be answered without Lojban. The fact that some of them are to be answered {na'i} is another story. > > Pierre > -- > li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8f502e8a05b8ea04ed57fd6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Pierre Abbat <= ;phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 14:43:41= John E. Clifford wrote:
> Well, it has the history somewhat skewed and almost all the usual erro= rs
> about the Whorf Hypothesis, but a decent sketch of what most people an= d
> Wikipedia think this is all about. =C2=A0And no, logical languages don= 't make ou
> more logical nor does the hypothesis nor JCB in his saner moments clai= m
> they would.

I've read of an actual test of the hypothesis - not a set-up expe= riment, but
an observation of two existing groups of people. There is a noticeable
difference in the kinds of industrial accidents that Swedish-speaking Finns= and
Finnish-speaking Finns get into; it was traced to the different ways the tw= o
languages encode spatiotemporal ideas. Finns who learned one language at ho= me
are required to learn the other in school (except in =C3=85land), so it'= ;s not just
knowing the language that makes the difference, but learning it first.

Lojban has at least ten ways of saying "and"

I wonder what would users of zasni gerna say? th= e latter mostly demolished the difference between A, JA, GUhA, GIhA, ZIhE.<= /div>

, several ways of saying "if"

Again we can argue that simple {zo'u} functioning a= s "if" can be as vague as English "if".

<= /div>
i fau lo nu do cpedu kei mi klama
i ganai do cpedu gi m= i klama
i lo nu do cpedu zo'u mi klama

, a
large set of specific prepositions

that are= just some gismu being compressed (which is clearly shown in the lack of BA= I for fi'o kansa [and that's why I proposed {ka'ai=3Dfi'o k= ansa}]).

, both spatial and temporal tenses

They say Quechua also perceived the world in spatio-tem= poral dualism.

, and full
clusivity.

mi'a vs. mi'o? I dont kn= ow why this scheme was chosen when English "we" is absolutely log= ical:

we =3D (personal) The speakers/writers, or t= he speaker/writer and at least one other person.

[and that's why I proposed {mi'ai} for it]
On the other hand, it lacks grammatical number and gender.

But this is absolutely not unique. You can test this witho= ut Lojban. No he/she in Turkish, no number and tense in Chinese.

And on the other side you don't have Japanese politeness= markers in Lojban.
I can translate Russian "=D0=B2=D1=8B&qu= ot; as {do .io} but not sure about "=D1=82=D1=8B".

=
=C2=A0
What
effect would learning Lojban as one's first language have on the mind?<= br>

But ba'a we'll see that soon. I= n any case many questions can be answered without Lojban. The fact that som= e of them are to be answered {na'i} is another story.
=C2=A0

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--e89a8f502e8a05b8ea04ed57fd6b--