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Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:48:45 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Problems with gismu
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:22 PM, lorxus <coronacoreanici@gmail.com> wrote:

> coi ro do
>
> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of
> learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
>
> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, some
> of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvious
> gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make all
> gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a
> patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely.
>

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/Rx3a3ToGVqw/discussion


> For gismu like {blanu}, we might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer
> x3", or something like that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned
> by x3".
>
> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gismu
> bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an
> epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a
> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3".
>

No one forces you NOT to use superfluous places  replacing them with {ma'i}
instead of "by standard" etc.


> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but words
> for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy?
>

Because the underlying physicochemical processes are diverse. It can be
only salt that causes the salty taste. That's why it's reasonable to use a
lujvo from it. However, you are free to create your own gismu and start
using them. Anyone stops you?


> (bonus points for whoever decided to make a lujvo for spicy meaning
> pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu for arrive
>

what's wrong with {tolyli'a} ? Is it too lengthy for you?

> , old
>

Heh, there is experimental {laldo = tolcitno}

, discard
>

to'e randa?


> , follow (because I assume that jersi does not have this sense)
>

Isn't it {se gidva} ?

, or appear?
>

tolcanci


> Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any passerine bird?
>

What's that bad with fu'ivla? {delfinu} is even easier to remember that
some hypothetical {*flinu}.


>
> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reasons
> for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a
> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.
>
> re'isai mi'e lorxus
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:22 PM, lorxus <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:coronacoreanici@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">coronacoreanici@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">coi ro do<br><br>It seems like for a lang=
uage that prides itself on regularity, ease of learning and use, and logic,=
 Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. <br>
<br>A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, so=
me of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obviou=
s gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make all=
 gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pati=
ent, and the third a beneficiary - loosely.</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/top=
ic/lojban/Rx3a3ToGVqw/discussion">https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/=
Rx3a3ToGVqw/discussion</a></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"> For gismu like {blanu}, we might have &quot;x1 is blue of=
 shade x2 to observer x3&quot;, or something like that; {zdani} might be &q=
uot;x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3&quot;. <br><br>Additionally, we would =
have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gismu bloat - things like &quot=
;x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3&quot;, &quot;x1 is an epistemolog=
y for truths about x2 (du&#39;u) used by x3&quot;, or &quot;x1 is a conditi=
on/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3&quot;.<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No one forces you NOT to use superfl=
uous places =A0replacing them with {ma&#39;i} instead of &quot;by standard&=
quot; etc.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204=
,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word f=
or salty, but words for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy?</div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Because the underlying physicochemical processes are div=
erse. It can be only salt that causes the salty taste. That&#39;s why it=
9;s reasonable to use a lujvo from it. However, you are free to create your=
 own gismu and start using them. Anyone stops you?</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"> (bonus poin=
ts for whoever decided to make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why=
 don&#39;t we have gismu for arrive</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>what&#39;s wrong with {tolyli&#39;a} ? Is =
it too lengthy for you?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">, old</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Heh, there is =
experimental {laldo =3D tolcitno}=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">, discard</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>to&#39;e r=
anda?</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);=
border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have this s=
ense)</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Isn&#39;t it {se gidva} ?</div>=
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">, or appear?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>tolcanc=
i</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bord=
er-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"> Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any passerin=
e bird? <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What&#39;s that bad with=
 fu&#39;ivla? {delfinu} is even easier to remember that some hypothetical {=
*flinu}.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>If I am =
overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reasons for not =
making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beautiful langua=
ge reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.<br>
<br>re&#39;isai mi&#39;e lorxus<span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"><br=
></font></span></div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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