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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:36:23 -0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Problems with gismu
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
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Yeah, we have {basti} for that. With regards to the property {binxo}, an
alternative is {co'arkai}, as well as {kaicfa}. Most useful though is plain
{co'a}, either as cmavo or rafsi.

With regards to the original subject. The gismu definitions do have issues.

Some irregularities are probably oversights (e.g. {pluja} vs. {sampu}),
others are a natural result of the non-systematic process of definition
(see the occasional x3 in animal gismu). Some bloat does exist, which has
an impact on the lujvo place structures, and some places are just too
underspecified (see plini3 and plini4). Also see:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gismu+Issues

None of that I consider major issues, requiring a radical review of the
existing language.

With regards to the proposal, fixed place structures completely miss the
point of the generality of relations, which include, in addition to the
mathematical ones already mentioned, spatial relations, family relations,
grammatical relations, etc.

It is however valid to consider limiting the number of places, if not in
the official gismu definitions, at least in usage. And if this is to affect
the place structure of production lujvo, some agreement on which places are
important will be necessary.


On 18 December 2013 02:20, Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl> wrote:

> Dnia wtorek, 17 grudnia 2013 22:53:39 Pierre Abbat pisze:
>
> > What about changing a light bulb? The old bulb does not become the new
> bulb,
> > but the bulb in the socket is changed from the old bulb to the new bulb.
>
> That's not "change"; that's "replace".
> --
> Ecce Jezuch
> Jon: it was a very nutritious meal!
> Garfield: yeah, I didn't like it either.
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Yeah, we have {basti} for that. With regards to =
the property {binxo}, an alternative is {co&#39;arkai}, as well as {kaicfa}=
. Most useful though is plain {co&#39;a}, either as cmavo or rafsi.<br><br>

</div>With regards to the original subject. The gismu definitions do have i=
ssues.<br><br>Some irregularities are probably oversights (e.g. {pluja} vs.=
 {sampu}), others are a natural result of the non-systematic process of def=
inition (see the occasional x3 in animal gismu). Some bloat does exist, whi=
ch has an impact on the lujvo place structures, and some places are just to=
o underspecified (see plini3 and plini4). Also see:<br>

<br><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gismu+Issues" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gismu+Issues</a><br><=
br></div><div>None of that I consider major issues, requiring a radical rev=
iew of the existing language.<br>

<br></div><div>With regards to the proposal, fixed place structures complet=
ely miss the point of the generality of relations, which include, in additi=
on to the mathematical ones already mentioned, spatial relations, family re=
lations, grammatical relations, etc.<br>

<br></div><div>It is however valid to consider limiting the number of place=
s, if not in the official gismu definitions, at least in usage. And if this=
 is to affect the place structure of production lujvo, some agreement on wh=
ich places are important will be necessary.<br>
</div><div><br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 December 2013 02:20, Krzysztof Sobolewski <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jezuch@interia.pl" target=3D"_blank">jezuch@=
interia.pl</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dnia wtorek, 17 grudnia 2013 22:53:39 Pierre=
 Abbat pisze:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; What about changing a light bulb? The old bulb does not become the new=
 bulb,<br>
&gt; but the bulb in the socket is changed from the old bulb to the new bul=
b.<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s not &quot;change&quot;; that&#39;s &quot;replace&quot;.<br=
>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
Ecce Jezuch<br>
Jon: it was a very nutritious meal!<br>
Garfield: yeah, I didn&#39;t like it either.<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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