Received: from mail-wg0-f57.google.com ([74.125.82.57]:46256) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtbuv-0006gu-EX for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:33 -0800 Received: by mail-wg0-f57.google.com with SMTP id a1sf73564wgh.22 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=sYGri0XztOS3rwYZSyea2VG50teqLU8jfzH6BJcGxTM=; b=Qx2FEB64oHvqhD62SBNVKVF0MdjXfLWjIUl4Yg5cfNpdAKeEWcba89EhUTsNXxj8UQ IPMBjs/2GfubG/W0IUEXlndThqBsK86IerI+OhC9CMIROpONEX2JXacSDl2orLW2Ur3o BCGras7jGtvKARglfe7vVkM3drK2aoTAAPEahJN+4XYMmo0qWkTa9s8mZE0ynkghjX/C H0r0b749POPHloa56pZ4LM94Dnn0ul89g5w/BdlBWYCS4PclkWgsx7SnsB1AHHdFRiwM mvSrwn9ScD5uaEhyLD+gzmsFr2Z+HOQU4+cN9+VzntqQkxGRXHrSL+D0gbT4PjjuNuOe SyMA== X-Received: by 10.152.29.72 with SMTP id i8mr7669lah.21.1387453038131; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.37.199 with SMTP id a7ls71018lak.26.gmail; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.26.72 with SMTP id j8mr490778lag.7.1387453037557; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x236.google.com (mail-we0-x236.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5si238837wie.2.2013.12.19.03.37.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::236; Received: by mail-we0-f182.google.com with SMTP id q59so929899wes.27 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.20.100 with SMTP id m4mr1000428wie.32.1387453037434; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 03:37:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> References: <3f955e44-a4ca-4c9c-ba07-ed82f6dcd1d8@googlegroups.com> <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:37:17 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53f2e2d705e0d04ede1952a X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec53f2e2d705e0d04ede1952a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:44 PM, lorxus wrote: > I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to occur; I > had assumed it was entirely theoretical. > so once they created "xorban". So .. where is the grammar? And in terms of semantic regularisation such language is impossible to create. This issue is more than 300 years old . > In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current language with maybe a > few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, > such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other things produce a salty > taste than table salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My > best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) > I don't know why vrusi1 is a property. I'd prefer a taste prototype there. But i think it should be {lo ciblu cu se vrusi lo silna} Personally I am unhappy (ita'osai ku'i mi'e la gleki) with the {vrusi} itself. The issue with sensory gismu is discussed here . The issue of property/object difference is discussed here . Thus I put {kukte} and {silna} in the same semantic class. and then to bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will > hopefully be the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be > impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i) > > > On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote: >> >> coi ro do >> >> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of >> learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. >> >> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, some >> of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvious >> gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make all >> gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a >> patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we >> might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something like that; >> {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". >> >> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gismu >> bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an >> epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a >> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3". >> >> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but words >> for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to >> make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu for >> arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have >> this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any >> passerine bird? >> >> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good >> reasons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a >> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so. >> >> re'isai mi'e lorxus >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --bcaec53f2e2d705e0d04ede1952a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:44 PM, lorxus <coronacoreanici@g= mail.com> wrote:
I didn't know that loCC= an was a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entir= ely theoretical.

so once they created "xorban". S= o .. where is the grammar?

And in terms of semanti= c regularisation such language is impossible to create. This issue is more = than 300 years old.
In that case, I'd pref= er conservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some pa= rticularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I na= med before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table salt= . How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess= is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.)

I don't know why vrusi1 is a property.= I'd prefer a taste prototype there.
But i think it should be= =A0

{lo ciblu cu se vrusi lo silna}

Personally I am unhappy (ita'osai ku'i mi'e la gleki= ) with the {vrusi} itself.
The issue with sensory gismu is discus= sed here.
The issue of property/object difference is discussed here.

Thus I put {kukte} and {si= lna} in the same semantic class.

and then to= bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be = the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be impressed and h= appy forever zo'ocu'i)


On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, l= orxus wrote:
coi ro= do

It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of = learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, = some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi= ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a= ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa= tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi= ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something li= ke that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".
Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism= u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3",= "x1 is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3"= ;, or "x1 is a condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) = affecting x3".

As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor= ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to= make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu = for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have= this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any p= asserine bird?

If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas= ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau= tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.

re'isa= i mi'e lorxus

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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