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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu
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Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:35:13 -0600
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 Content preview:  The fundamental problem with semantic prime languages was
   dealt with already by Aristotle (the system is either incomplete or circular),
    though not explicitly about language. The various choices to take once the
    first problem is overcome (either way) can be justified in various way;in
    the case {vrusi 1}, both practicality and philosophy favor the prototype
   approach, but it does lack precision. (blood tastes salty because it contains
    salt, after all). [...] 
 
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The fundamental problem with semantic prime languages was dealt with alread=
y by Aristotle (the system is either incomplete or circular), though not ex=
plicitly about language.  The various choices to take once the first proble=
m is overcome (either way) can be justified in various way;in the case {vru=
si 1}, both practicality and philosophy favor the prototype approach, but i=
t does lack precision. (blood tastes salty because it contains salt, after =
all).

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:37, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:44 PM, lorxus <coronacoreanici@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to occur; I=
 had assumed it was entirely theoretical.
>=20
> so once they created "xorban". So .. where is the grammar?
>=20
> And in terms of semantic regularisation such language is impossible to cr=
eate. This issue is more than 300 years old.
> In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current language with maybe =
a few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gism=
u, such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other things produce a sal=
ty taste than table salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban?=
 My best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.)
>=20
> I don't know why vrusi1 is a property. I'd prefer a taste prototype there=
.
> But i think it should be=20
>=20
> {lo ciblu cu se vrusi lo silna}
>=20
> Personally I am unhappy (ita'osai ku'i mi'e la gleki) with the {vrusi} it=
self.
> The issue with sensory gismu is discussed here.
> The issue of property/object difference is discussed here.
>=20
> Thus I put {kukte} and {silna} in the same semantic class.
>=20
> and then to bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will =
hopefully be the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be im=
pressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i)
>=20
>=20
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote:
> coi ro do
>=20
> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of le=
arning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.=20
>=20
> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, some=
 of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvious =
gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make all g=
ismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a patien=
t, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we might =
have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something like that; {zdan=
i} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".=20
>=20
> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gismu =
bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an e=
pistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a condition/m=
itigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3".
>=20
> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but words=
 for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to m=
ake a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu for ar=
rive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have this =
sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any passeri=
ne bird?=20
>=20
> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reason=
s for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beauti=
ful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.
>=20
> re'isai mi'e lorxus
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>The fundamental problem w=
ith semantic prime languages was dealt with already by Aristotle (the syste=
m is either incomplete or circular), though not explicitly about language. =
&nbsp;The various choices to take once the first problem is overcome (eithe=
r way) can be justified in various way;in the case {vrusi 1}, both practica=
lity and philosophy favor the prototype approach, but it does lack precisio=
n. (blood tastes salty because it contains salt, after all).<br><br>Sent fr=
om my iPad</div><div><br>On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:37, Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:44 PM, lorxus <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:coronacoreanici@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">coronacoreanici@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I didn't know that loCCan w=
as a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entirely =
theoretical.</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>so once they created "xorban". So .. where=
 is the grammar?</div><div><br></div><div>And in terms of semantic regulari=
sation such language is impossible to create. This issue is more than <a hr=
ef=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Essay_towards_a_Real_Character_and_a=
_Philosophical_Language">300 years old</a>.</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"> In that case, I'd prefer c=
onservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some partic=
ularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I named =
before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table salt. Ho=
w would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is {lei ciblu=
 cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.)</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't know why vrusi1 is a property. I'd=
 prefer a taste prototype there.</div><div>But i think it should be&nbsp;</=
div><div><br></div><div>{lo ciblu cu se vrusi lo silna}</div><div><br>
</div><div>Personally I am unhappy (ita'osai ku'i mi'e la gleki) with the {=
vrusi} itself.</div><div>The issue with sensory gismu is discussed <a href=
=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DBPFK_Section:_sensory_gismu#la_g=
leki.27s_third_proposal">here</a>.</div>
<div>The issue of property/object difference is discussed <a href=3D"http:/=
/mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Djbocre:_Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar_and_la_gleki%27s_=
fishy_apples">here</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>Thus I put {kukte} and {si=
lna} in the same semantic class.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"> and then to=
 bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be =
the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be impressed and h=
appy forever zo'ocu'i)<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br>On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, l=
orxus wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left=
:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">coi ro=
 do<br>
<br>It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of =
learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. <b=
r><br>A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, =
some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi=
ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a=
ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa=
tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi=
ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something like that; {=
zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". <br>
<br>Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism=
u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an=
 epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a condition=
/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3".<br>
<br>As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor=
ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to=
 make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu for =
arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have thi=
s sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any passe=
rine bird? <br>
<br>If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas=
ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau=
tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.<br><br>re'isai mi=
'e lorxus<br>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5=
">

<p></p>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

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