Received: from mail-we0-f190.google.com ([74.125.82.190]:36639) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vteox-00081x-47 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:51 -0800 Received: by mail-we0-f190.google.com with SMTP id u57sf88380wes.7 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3xjg12xsU+0N/3JZ4KezghSEIeEirJwyncJ6HNkB3w4=; b=zWvwhXm6RetJQ+hk1ES8M+ohbNs7Q4cfyYd03e+bUhC9LlfdphYgYvao6htOKD3vSo TK4yCL54oeFk5m1wUi2E2roCypAkKnCeZpBYhinFKCKQmkjOWlkFD1gss5DQYBfRdDQC X8m5UqwoUXTq46Y2Xf5mNmyzs7RNuIFto8JL446F7Wjpiv5jOqWCg+BWRXkXeACuNYeQ TQDz3OiJvuZj+9TBfVuJ64FAi+CN9vTnOT7PJL0zOFmu1EtKAoVczEBpAVMlO1yjW6lU wgmcDQNwlSIRv8/vf3oz1ElpJZOhqn01qJmUODS5YLnhjZHMi0qCo6ZELMF8yziJsATT AAbg== X-Received: by 10.180.7.198 with SMTP id l6mr21099wia.6.1387464199849; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.39.108 with SMTP id o12ls242225wik.43.gmail; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.210.244 with SMTP id mx20mr1396881wic.6.1387464199114; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com (mail-wi0-x22a.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t4si353734wiv.1.2013.12.19.06.43.19 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a; Received: by mail-wi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id hq4so6658385wib.5 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.37.69 with SMTP id w5mr3055074wij.53.1387464198997; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 06:43:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3f955e44-a4ca-4c9c-ba07-ed82f6dcd1d8@googlegroups.com> <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:43:18 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f502e8ab84cb204ede42e9b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f502e8ab84cb204ede42e9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > The fundamental problem with semantic prime languages was dealt with > already by Aristotle (the system is either incomplete or circular), though > not explicitly about language. The various choices to take once the first > problem is overcome (either way) can be justified in various way;in the > case {vrusi 1}, both practicality and philosophy favor the prototype > approach, but it does lack precision. (blood tastes salty because it > contains salt, after all). > Blood contains salt so technically it's salt (although not pure but where did you see 100%-pure substances?) > > Sent from my iPad > > On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:37, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:44 PM, lorxus wrote: > >> I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to occur; I >> had assumed it was entirely theoretical. >> > > so once they created "xorban". So .. where is the grammar? > > And in terms of semantic regularisation such language is impossible to > create. This issue is more than 300 years old > . > >> In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current language with maybe >> a few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new >> gismu, such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other things produce a >> salty taste than table salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in >> Lojban? My best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) >> > > I don't know why vrusi1 is a property. I'd prefer a taste prototype there. > But i think it should be > > {lo ciblu cu se vrusi lo silna} > > Personally I am unhappy (ita'osai ku'i mi'e la gleki) with the {vrusi} > itself. > The issue with sensory gismu is discussed here > . > The issue of property/object difference is discussed here > . > > Thus I put {kukte} and {silna} in the same semantic class. > > and then to bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will >> hopefully be the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be >> impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i) >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote: >>> >>> coi ro do >>> >>> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of >>> learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. >>> >>> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, >>> some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely >>> obvious gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, >>> make all gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the >>> second a patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like >>> {blanu}, we might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or >>> something like that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". >>> >>> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gismu >>> bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an >>> epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a >>> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3". >>> >>> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but >>> words for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided >>> to make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu >>> for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have >>> this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any >>> passerine bird? >>> >>> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good >>> reasons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a >>> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so. >>> >>> re'isai mi'e lorxus >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8f502e8ab84cb204ede42e9b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
The fundamenta= l problem with semantic prime languages was dealt with already by Aristotle= (the system is either incomplete or circular), though not explicitly about= language. =A0The various choices to take once the first problem is overcom= e (either way) can be justified in various way;in the case {vrusi 1}, both = practicality and philosophy favor the prototype approach, but it does lack = precision. (blood tastes salty because it contains salt, after all).

Blood contains salt so technic= ally it's salt (although not pure but where did you see 100%-pure subst= ances?)=A0

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:37, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:




On Thu, Dec 19,= 2013 at 2:44 PM, lorxus <coronacoreanici@gmail.com>= wrote:
I didn't know that loCC= an was a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entir= ely theoretical.

so once they created "xorban". S= o .. where is the grammar?

And in terms of semanti= c regularisation such language is impossible to create. This issue is more = than 300 years old.
In that case, I'd pref= er conservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some pa= rticularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I na= med before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table salt= . How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess= is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.)

I don't know why vrusi1 is a property.= I'd prefer a taste prototype there.
But i think it should be= =A0

{lo ciblu cu se vrusi lo silna}

Personally I am unhappy (ita'osai ku'i mi'e la gleki= ) with the {vrusi} itself.
The issue with sensory gismu is discus= sed here.
The issue of property/object difference is discussed here.

Thus I p= ut {kukte} and {silna} in the same semantic class.

and then to= bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be = the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be impressed and h= appy forever zo'ocu'i)


On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
coi ro do

It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of = learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, = some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi= ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a= ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa= tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi= ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something li= ke that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".
Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism= u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3",= "x1 is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3"= ;, or "x1 is a condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) = affecting x3".

As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor= ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to= make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu = for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have= this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any p= asserine bird?

If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas= ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau= tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.

re'isa= i mi'e lorxus

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--
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--
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--e89a8f502e8ab84cb204ede42e9b--