Received: from mail-ee0-f63.google.com ([74.125.83.63]:44380) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtt3E-0006UK-1J for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:55:21 -0800 Received: by mail-ee0-f63.google.com with SMTP id d49sf141083eek.18 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LxFmpttXxPp/AdIblchxmXA2M5ROskjZSuNN28Ifpys=; b=ORcem6dhh5Mi9nJoA8FILx12+8xyMWL6fx33iFmKo5SX6QkGDd6jt5mLBapR3hcPip i+SyziSZJLOtarYcZJznUokzf6SjKP2ucUA1T4fkN5hJ1K8lsyC0S/fqkI/po+CuMGSJ bTdnVUhd+gQO1iRJRtXNsJ/UPITFJSTZ1+y6B4yXUIovEEgT0oSrt0FK8ElJTVKm8qiG snlaGRGC7geVkno29Qh8sqKU/tnxtAVe7Yata6Yn7z/KOwwyPN8spiNOSxsfPxWuqWLE iTsNC5gkit8anGK/i3nmKLI0w8bExlzYOJSHFPPcw9dhE8IZE9Cjgvrb1Rz3QwOzoFCe ctJQ== X-Received: by 10.180.9.179 with SMTP id a19mr47328wib.20.1387518899464; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:59 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.100.134 with SMTP id ey6ls1142813wib.8.canary; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:58 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.15.51.132 with SMTP id n4mr1076853eew.3.1387518898871; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x22d.google.com (mail-wg0-x22d.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o3si423216wiy.0.2013.12.19.21.54.58 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d; Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id y10so1981167wgg.0 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.37.69 with SMTP id w5mr6130486wij.53.1387518898745; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:54:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3f955e44-a4ca-4c9c-ba07-ed82f6dcd1d8@googlegroups.com> <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:54:58 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f502e8a14372b04edf0ebb2 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f502e8a14372b04edf0ebb2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna} is underdocumented. In chemical sense different salts can elicit all five basic tastes, e.g., salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, which will cause lead poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bitter (magnesium sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1] So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for salts in general we choose another term. On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > > AFAIK, LoCCan isn't currently in the works (but note that recent engelang > project). OTOH, I think it's inevitable. Some people simply want to improve > whatever they encounter, not accepting that 'good enough' is good enough. > > stevo > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus wrote: > >> I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to occur; I >> had assumed it was entirely theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer >> conservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some >> particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I >> named before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table >> salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is >> {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) and then to bring these lessons more >> completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be the fantastic perfect >> logical language and everyone will be impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i) >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote: >>> >>> coi ro do >>> >>> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of >>> learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. >>> >>> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, >>> some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely >>> obvious gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, >>> make all gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the >>> second a patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like >>> {blanu}, we might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or >>> something like that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". >>> >>> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gismu >>> bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an >>> epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a >>> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3". >>> >>> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but >>> words for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided >>> to make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu >>> for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have >>> this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any >>> passerine bird? >>> >>> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good >>> reasons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a >>> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so. >>> >>> re'isai mi'e lorxus >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8f502e8a14372b04edf0ebb2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna} is u= nderdocumented.
In chemical sense different salts can elicit all five b= asic tastes, e.g., salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, which wi= ll cause lead poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bitter (= magnesium sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1]

So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for = salts in general we choose another term.





On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

AFAIK, LoCCan isn't currentl= y in the works (but note that recent engelang project). OTOH, I think it= 9;s inevitable. Some people simply want to improve whatever they encounter,= not accepting that 'good enough' is good enough.=A0

st= evo


On Thu, = Dec 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus <coronacoreanici@gmail.com>= wrote:
I didn't know that loCC= an was a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entir= ely theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current l= anguage with maybe a few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and defini= tely a few new gismu, such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other t= hings produce a salty taste than table salt. How would you say "The bl= ood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu= loi silna}.) and then to bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. = (which will hopefully be the fantastic perfect logical language and everyon= e will be impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i)


On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
coi ro do

It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of = learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, = some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi= ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a= ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa= tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi= ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something li= ke that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".
Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism= u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3",= "x1 is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3"= ;, or "x1 is a condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) = affecting x3".

As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor= ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to= make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu = for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have= this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any p= asserine bird?

If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas= ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau= tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.

re'isa= i mi'e lorxus

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--e89a8f502e8a14372b04edf0ebb2--