Received: from mail-yh0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:35135) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtuh5-0006vh-HC for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:40:31 -0800 Received: by mail-yh0-f61.google.com with SMTP id z6sf366333yhz.16 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:40:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RIZOGuiY80GR3yqG5SqELawWoYyoPVG++cQNuzgf0O8=; b=J+JYhEKcBDfEce1foF+q8mjY47iZHJUfXF90WNlPkACQT+mM0aYSo3cS9/xuZpB8j9 fYs1lc4nR35jPaj2EJuvbIU9tr77CVl4/2GonsgBBVE59YBNV7xyFcAE1CxpwijXcOLm kR5EEKOy980AB7O5eiXKnbFu4GyTjXgBhxdwCNEZqVlXzKbpdbv300UE5iUiT7QiAGiV rLJDOuXVJB6OZMMsVKKwJ4NDAVADVpA6JFiSuWn4UnkthHn5d2yhlfoVuSHnlKz2SGgE k9cZTuykSQCy28FDZhzuB3mEtwBPBSKvMm7lPgeDI1bs8qHLrC+S3kVaY5W1ViwurKML Bc8Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RIZOGuiY80GR3yqG5SqELawWoYyoPVG++cQNuzgf0O8=; b=hxulKgrcuyDCiI7Cfujy3MrLxEJ43PsQXJn1WnF2IX9lFm2owK1sTjUXPMAg87ysyD Og1lMIGJg5qixGGNK/tjNRMWmO7yL8q8cpiLdCJfxbOwGHvlb17BTNVuZHAybkrUPsvS eNV0lKq6qcJJ7f+iDh9xsrlxd+5d51RVyEwanTgBWur7OT1NYVPn0PcDDm6IGz0C0Bx/ sFhGHWixsO2c2eyMswlD07FKwdrEqS3OgLU4RzHohgZBVC3vo+CzaDUthOt40yS4ASMt 1tH9ysUn78DpxNMOHOBmN45bxJMgi+Eq8HFFN5SfYb9/Ph4oA6Fqfls+Fr5D8WNtgqEo aOjA== X-Received: by 10.182.33.4 with SMTP id n4mr5572obi.9.1387525217201; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:40:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.34.198 with SMTP id b6ls456493obj.18.gmail; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:40:16 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.183.74 with SMTP id ek10mr5182obc.21.1387525216765; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:40:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:40:16 -0800 (PST) From: lorxus To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3f955e44-a4ca-4c9c-ba07-ed82f6dcd1d8@googlegroups.com> <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: coronacoreanici@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_36_16372165.1387525216197" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_36_16372165.1387525216197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .iepei .uisai Not quite, though. We use KCl for salt, too, sometimes. But more or less! I also have somewhat of a problem with the inconsistency of forced to'e use: we have zunle/pritu, nenri/bartu, stali/cliva, tordu/clani, hell, even blanu/narju and glare/lenku. But we're forced to use to'e constructions for words like arrive, discard, and old. (And for that matter, how do you even mark deixis (go/come distinction) in Lojban, anyway?) On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:54:58 AM UTC-5, la arxokuna wrote: > > I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna} is underdocumented. > In chemical sense different salts can elicit all five basic tastes, e.g., > salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, which will cause lead > poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bitter (magnesium > sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1] > > So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for salts in general we > choose another term. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict > > wrote: > >> >> AFAIK, LoCCan isn't currently in the works (but note that recent engelang >> project). OTOH, I think it's inevitable. Some people simply want to improve >> whatever they encounter, not accepting that 'good enough' is good enough. >> >> stevo >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus >> > wrote: >> >>> I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to occur; >>> I had assumed it was entirely theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer >>> conservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some >>> particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I >>> named before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table >>> salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is >>> {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) and then to bring these lessons more >>> completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be the fantastic perfect >>> logical language and everyone will be impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i) >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote: >>>> >>>> coi ro do >>>> >>>> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of >>>> learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. >>>> >>>> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, >>>> some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely >>>> obvious gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, >>>> make all gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the >>>> second a patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like >>>> {blanu}, we might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or >>>> something like that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". >>>> >>>> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the >>>> gismu bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 >>>> is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a >>>> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3". >>>> >>>> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but >>>> words for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided >>>> to make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu >>>> for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have >>>> this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any >>>> passerine bird? >>>> >>>> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good >>>> reasons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a >>>> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so. >>>> >>>> re'isai mi'e lorxus >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_36_16372165.1387525216197 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.iepei .uisai

Not quite, though. We use KCl for sa= lt, too, sometimes. But more or less! I also have somewhat of a problem wit= h the inconsistency of forced to'e use: we have zunle/pritu, nenri/bartu, s= tali/cliva, tordu/clani, hell, even blanu/narju and glare/lenku. But we're = forced to use to'e constructions for words like arrive, discard, and old. (= And for that matter, how do you even mark deixis (go/come distinction) in L= ojban, anyway?)
On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:54:58 AM UTC-5, la arxo= kuna wrote:
I = think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna} is underdocumented.In chemical sense different salts can elicit all five basic tastes, e.g., = salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, which will cause lead poiso= ning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bitter (magnesium sulfate),= and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1]

So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for = salts in general we choose another term.





On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
=

AFAIK, LoCCan isn't c= urrently in the works (but note that recent engelang project). OTOH, I thin= k it's inevitable. Some people simply want to improve whatever they encount= er, not accepting that 'good enough' is good enough. 

stev= o


On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at= 5:44 AM, lorxus <coronac...@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't know that loCCan w= as a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entirely = theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current language = with maybe a few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and definitely a f= ew new gismu, such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other things pr= oduce a salty taste than table salt. How would you say "The blood is salty"= in Lojban? My best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) and then= to bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully = be the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be impressed an= d happy forever zo'ocu'i)


On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
coi ro do

It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of = learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, = some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi= ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a= ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa= tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi= ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something like that; {= zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".

Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism= u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an= epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a condition= /mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3".

As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor= ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to= make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu for = arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have thi= s sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any passe= rine bird?

If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas= ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau= tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.

re'isai mi= 'e lorxus

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