Received: from mail-la0-f55.google.com ([209.85.215.55]:56256) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtv6v-00074T-EG for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:07:18 -0800 Received: by mail-la0-f55.google.com with SMTP id eo20sf156199lab.0 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=peSRwAmVd/8TmzVLOzQ6xkIWkQDHpP7RQdpezjAHNbQ=; b=uMB/NrUqRWzdoYHwV+DURU+Lt+HVO/xZZJj20OPwY/wMpDF0d8gvLeBQEtiy7Sycdw XoUFnr1Nk1TFytuSikwKhatmVXLi+ZIgktf/ZbuqnM5tnVK2Fg0l5PTv/iuHxkvHnyAn XpAQChg53oLUvSUBhLikalj39lmVHOq0Q2GqhXiuhfJ1LCwKLuApTpKz/23vQS9SdNaj HQjD1QsXgadELfzecMu/BaLFp0mBZDV6a+L2OLUfsfXlicvh49mj1vgTmSv5vz/wz9QM LGObfVi0KA/MtbwSMLqkL9cHlOsy+2XSAkY0lBI8TxucDcTzT/jouKHCRILfE9IoQdW4 ncXw== X-Received: by 10.152.20.70 with SMTP id l6mr2786lae.32.1387526817390; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:57 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.180.4 with SMTP id dk4ls152526lac.49.gmail; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.152.143.107 with SMTP id sd11mr2913062lab.5.1387526816781; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r7si531325wic.0.2013.12.20.00.06.56 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e; Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id z2so7989262wiv.13 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.13.139 with SMTP id h11mr6272386wic.3.1387526816622; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:06:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3f955e44-a4ca-4c9c-ba07-ed82f6dcd1d8@googlegroups.com> <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:06:56 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c24448056e6904edf2c3f8 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c24448056e6904edf2c3f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:40 AM, lorxus wrote: > .iepei .uisai > > Not quite, though. We use KCl for salt, too, sometimes. > This is a problem then. May be include KCl too to that definition. Btw, what is the correct term for "salt" in chemical sense? Looks like all major languages use the same term for "generic salt" and for NaCl. > But more or less! I also have somewhat of a problem with the inconsistency > of forced to'e use: we have zunle/pritu, nenri/bartu, stali/cliva, > tordu/clani, hell, even blanu/narju and glare/lenku. But we're forced to > use to'e constructions for words like arrive, discard, and old. (And for > that matter, how do you even mark deixis (go/come distinction) in Lojban, > anyway?) > {klama/muvdu} is "to go" . How can you go without having a {lo se klama}? - Come! - Come where? To you? - No. Just come to a place you wish. How does it differ from the following? - go! - Go where? To you? - No. Just go to a place you wish. On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:54:58 AM UTC-5, la arxokuna wrote: > >> I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna} is underdocumented. >> In chemical sense different salts can elicit all five basic tastes, e.g., >> salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, which will cause lead >> poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bitter (magnesium >> sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1] >> >> So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for salts in general >> we choose another term. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >> >>> >>> AFAIK, LoCCan isn't currently in the works (but note that recent >>> engelang project). OTOH, I think it's inevitable. Some people simply want >>> to improve whatever they encounter, not accepting that 'good enough' is >>> good enough. >>> >>> stevo >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus wrote: >>> >>>> I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to occur; >>>> I had assumed it was entirely theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer >>>> conservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some >>>> particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I >>>> named before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table >>>> salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is >>>> {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) and then to bring these lessons more >>>> completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be the fantastic perfect >>>> logical language and everyone will be impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i) >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote: >>>>> >>>>> coi ro do >>>>> >>>>> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of >>>>> learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. >>>>> >>>>> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, >>>>> some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely >>>>> obvious gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, >>>>> make all gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the >>>>> second a patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like >>>>> {blanu}, we might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or >>>>> something like that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". >>>>> >>>>> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the >>>>> gismu bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 >>>>> is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a >>>>> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3". >>>>> >>>>> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but >>>>> words for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided >>>>> to make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu >>>>> for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have >>>>> this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any >>>>> passerine bird? >>>>> >>>>> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good >>>>> reasons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a >>>>> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so. >>>>> >>>>> re'isai mi'e lorxus >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c24448056e6904edf2c3f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:40 AM, lorxus <coronacoreanici@= gmail.com> wrote:
.iepei .uisai

Not quite, though. = We use KCl for salt, too, sometimes.

This is a problem then. May be include KCl= too to that definition.

Btw, what is the correct = term for "salt" in chemical sense? Looks like all major languages= use the same term for "generic salt" and for NaCl.

=A0
But more or= less! I also have somewhat of a problem with the inconsistency of forced t= o'e use: we have zunle/pritu, nenri/bartu, stali/cliva, tordu/clani, he= ll, even blanu/narju and glare/lenku. But we're forced to use to'e = constructions for words like arrive, discard, and old. (And for that matter= , how do you even mark deixis (go/come distinction) in Lojban, anyway?)

{klama/muvdu} is "to go" .= How can you go without having a {lo se klama}?

- = Come!
- Come where? To you?
- No. Just come to a place = you wish.

How does it differ from the following?
-= go!
- Go where? To you?
- No. Just go to a place you w= ish.


On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:54:58 AM UTC-5, la ar= xokuna wrote:
I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna}= is underdocumented.
In chemical sense different salts can elicit all f= ive basic tastes, e.g., salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, whi= ch will cause lead poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bit= ter (magnesium sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1]

So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for = salts in general we choose another term.





On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict <l= yt...@gmail.com> wrote:

= AFAIK, LoCCan isn't currently in the works (but note that recent engela= ng project). OTOH, I think it's inevitable. Some people simply want to = improve whatever they encounter, not accepting that 'good enough' i= s good enough.=A0

stevo


On T= hu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus <coronac...@gma= il.com> wrote:
I didn't know that loCCan = was a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entirely= theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current lang= uage with maybe a few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and definitel= y a few new gismu, such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other thin= gs produce a salty taste than table salt. How would you say "The blood= is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu lo= i silna}.) and then to bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (wh= ich will hopefully be the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone w= ill be impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i)


On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">
coi ro do

It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of = learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, = some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi= ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a= ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa= tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi= ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something li= ke that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".
Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism= u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3",= "x1 is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3"= ;, or "x1 is a condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) = affecting x3".

As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor= ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to= make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu = for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have= this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any p= asserine bird?

If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas= ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau= tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.

re'isa= i mi'e lorxus

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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