Received: from mail-ob0-f184.google.com ([209.85.214.184]:59808) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtv9y-00076F-Tj for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:10:22 -0800 Received: by mail-ob0-f184.google.com with SMTP id vb8sf355416obc.1 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:10:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KRxBkis+3q5J0YEs5VDqk2KM+yFtOEDe7iYWVsgC7ek=; b=LiBy7vSY3Q+wkvEnWVG+kfx/Nna9TD2DvVzmVgsVot33KAKO0Gc9PzzPnN4zwvv/m9 I7ca0pdYOIy/b+zINoQvbrPGwlzYWIYHSH5tOCIuqIGhA9j4lnKTlNnuWPuv/iKF2sId MQdaBCF9Ivj3eKmJJbCvHuOVrjye6nMyWb8+BoEm8HnRvN+UFfHB2y92AxP4qnSt3INx 0V2M2a/XbW7pti0/VlLrV45w5PjfMH23cvxLTZ9MEaTmG1kUQzgnpxd7O4w8LKrjtIim BIjQgHmgr6DhI3l3PhJNbHib7j6lVDOhiH843WHF0xBDTIO30in2wto21DZT5Az0Xl+7 WEEg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KRxBkis+3q5J0YEs5VDqk2KM+yFtOEDe7iYWVsgC7ek=; b=m7uAs3LX4RMeBZg7etJfcIKl4UBd8Fr3U0RPx5dT0ZcpkxK0773rbHWRh0Y3FPcXTT doiIdOr6/AnKrkwo98xkvFXPBmsbQWqEfiGijQOHfVjyJ6DQBrE9jRJUxWSqyU/l0UEk RR7sb2DXSggkgeKr+mWiJ9sLz7is0pDjIjS2AHPfC9F9A9ZvzGtDtRgAmaH63dKQwVhB LS1enCxO9Fsd9hxYiojn2EEP2cT6zrttbwQlNCEF4x4/H6aKFAGIja6GdqKm+GA+9FSl hvspnFmJpybdFBac8K3s+8X3fZ4SDfNy+K8ShWv2a714HvaKiBNBJbA5annIob+xoPPk FHgA== X-Received: by 10.182.138.66 with SMTP id qo2mr6126obb.8.1387527008869; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:10:08 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.176.33 with SMTP id cf1ls413006obc.9.gmail; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:10:08 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.183.1.40 with SMTP id bd8mr6210obd.11.1387527008523; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:10:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:10:07 -0800 (PST) From: lorxus To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3f955e44-a4ca-4c9c-ba07-ed82f6dcd1d8@googlegroups.com> <69230493-942e-4bc9-983c-299bd6eb8a84@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Problems with gismu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: coronacoreanici@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_165_1016168.1387527008014" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_165_1016168.1387527008014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You know, I'm not sure. If you asked me today, I'd probably say {le silna xukmi}. As for the other, I'm not talking about the lack of a se klama, Deixis is the thing that makes "Come to my house" imply {mi ja'a zvati le mi zdani} and "Go to my house" imply {mi na zvati le mi zdani}. On Friday, December 20, 2013 3:06:56 AM UTC-5, la arxokuna wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:40 AM, lorxus > > wrote: > >> .iepei .uisai >> >> Not quite, though. We use KCl for salt, too, sometimes. >> > > This is a problem then. May be include KCl too to that definition. > > Btw, what is the correct term for "salt" in chemical sense? Looks like all > major languages use the same term for "generic salt" and for NaCl. > > > >> But more or less! I also have somewhat of a problem with the >> inconsistency of forced to'e use: we have zunle/pritu, nenri/bartu, >> stali/cliva, tordu/clani, hell, even blanu/narju and glare/lenku. But we're >> forced to use to'e constructions for words like arrive, discard, and old. >> (And for that matter, how do you even mark deixis (go/come distinction) in >> Lojban, anyway?) >> > > {klama/muvdu} is "to go" . How can you go without having a {lo se klama}? > > - Come! > - Come where? To you? > - No. Just come to a place you wish. > > How does it differ from the following? > - go! > - Go where? To you? > - No. Just go to a place you wish. > > > On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:54:58 AM UTC-5, la arxokuna wrote: >> >>> I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna} is underdocumented. >>> In chemical sense different salts can elicit all five basic tastes, >>> e.g., salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, which will cause lead >>> poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bitter (magnesium >>> sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1] >>> >>> So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for salts in general >>> we choose another term. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> AFAIK, LoCCan isn't currently in the works (but note that recent >>>> engelang project). OTOH, I think it's inevitable. Some people simply want >>>> to improve whatever they encounter, not accepting that 'good enough' is >>>> good enough. >>>> >>>> stevo >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus wrote: >>>> >>>>> I didn't know that loCCan was a thing that was actually going to >>>>> occur; I had assumed it was entirely theoretical. In that case, I'd prefer >>>>> conservation of the current language with maybe a few changes to some >>>>> particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few new gismu, such as the ones I >>>>> named before, (By the way, other things produce a salty taste than table >>>>> salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in Lojban? My best guess is >>>>> {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) and then to bring these lessons more >>>>> completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be the fantastic perfect >>>>> logical language and everyone will be impressed and happy forever zo'ocu'i) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> coi ro do >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease >>>>>> of learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu. >>>>>> >>>>>> A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, >>>>>> some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely >>>>>> obvious gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, >>>>>> make all gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the >>>>>> second a patient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like >>>>>> {blanu}, we might have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or >>>>>> something like that; {zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3". >>>>>> >>>>>> Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the >>>>>> gismu bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 >>>>>> is an epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a >>>>>> condition/mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3". >>>>>> >>>>>> As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but >>>>>> words for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided >>>>>> to make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu >>>>>> for arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have >>>>>> this sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any >>>>>> passerine bird? >>>>>> >>>>>> If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good >>>>>> reasons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a >>>>>> beautiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so. >>>>>> >>>>>> re'isai mi'e lorxus >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_165_1016168.1387527008014 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You know, I'm not sure. If you asked me today, I'd probabl= y say {le silna xukmi}.

As for the other, I'm not talking about the = lack of a se klama, Deixis is the thing that makes "Come to my house" imply= {mi ja'a zvati le mi zdani} and "Go to my house" imply {mi na zvati le mi = zdani}.

On Friday, December 20, 2013 3:06:56 AM UTC-5, la arxokuna w= rote:



On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:40 AM, lorxu= s <coronac...@gma= il.com> wrote:
.iepei .uisai

Not quite, though. = We use KCl for salt, too, sometimes.

This is a problem then. May be include KCl= too to that definition.

Btw, what is the correct = term for "salt" in chemical sense? Looks like all major languages use the s= ame term for "generic salt" and for NaCl.

 
But more= or less! I also have somewhat of a problem with the inconsistency of force= d to'e use: we have zunle/pritu, nenri/bartu, stali/cliva, tordu/clani, hel= l, even blanu/narju and glare/lenku. But we're forced to use to'e construct= ions for words like arrive, discard, and old. (And for that matter, how do = you even mark deixis (go/come distinction) in Lojban, anyway?)

{klama/muvdu} is "to go" . How can y= ou go without having a {lo se klama}?

- Come!
- Come where? To you?
- No. Just come to a place you wish.<= /div>

How does it differ from the following?
-= go!
- Go where? To you?
- No. Just go to a place you w= ish.


On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:54:58 AM UTC-5, la ar= xokuna wrote:
I think I have to agree with lorxus. The term {silna}= is underdocumented.
In chemical sense different salts can elicit all f= ive basic tastes, e.g., salty (sodium chloride), sweet (lead diacetate, whi= ch will cause lead poisoning if ingested), sour (potassium bitartrate), bit= ter (magnesium sulfate), and umami or savory (monosodium glutamate). [1]

So I suggest that {silna} is reserved for NaCl and for = salts in general we choose another term.





On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:54 AM, MorphemeAddict <l= yt...@gmail.com> wrote:
AFAIK, LoCCan is= n't currently in the works (but note that recent engelang project). OTOH, I= think it's inevitable. Some people simply want to improve whatever they en= counter, not accepting that 'good enough' is good enough. 

On Thu, Dec = 19, 2013 at 5:44 AM, lorxus <coronac...@gmail.com> wrote:
I didn't know that loCCan was = a thing that was actually going to occur; I had assumed it was entirely the= oretical. In that case, I'd prefer conservation of the current language wit= h maybe a few changes to some particularly bad gismu, and definitely a few = new gismu, such as the ones I named before, (By the way, other things produ= ce a salty taste than table salt. How would you say "The blood is salty" in= Lojban? My best guess is {lei ciblu cu vu'ismimlu loi silna}.) and then to= bring these lessons more completely into loCCan. (which will hopefully be = the fantastic perfect logical language and everyone will be impressed and h= appy forever zo'ocu'i)


On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:22:51 AM UTC-5, lorxus wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">
coi ro do

It seems like for a language that prides itself on regularity, ease of = learning and use, and logic, Lojban sure has weird and incomplete gismu.
A given gismu can have anywhere from 1 to 5 places of varying types, = some of them a sign of gismu bloat, and there are even a few extremely obvi= ous gismu with clear counterparts are excluded. My proposals: first, make a= ll gismu be exactly 3 places long, with the first an agent, the second a pa= tient, and the third a beneficiary - loosely. For gismu like {blanu}, we mi= ght have "x1 is blue of shade x2 to observer x3", or something like that; {= zdani} might be "x1 is a house for x2 owned by x3".

Additionally, we would have a few 1-place gismu to collect all the gism= u bloat - things like "x1 is a standard for x2 (ka?) used by x3", "x1 is an= epistemology for truths about x2 (du'u) used by x3", or "x1 is a condition= /mitigating factor/modifier on event x2 (nu?) affecting x3".

As for blatantly missing gismu: why is there no word for salty, but wor= ds for sweet, bitter, sour, and spicy? (bonus points for whoever decided to= make a lujvo for spicy meaning pain-flavored) Why don't we have gismu for = arrive, old, discard, follow (because I assume that jersi does not have thi= s sense), or appear? Why not for otter, or carrot, or dolphin, or any passe= rine bird?

If I am overly inexperienced to talk about this, or there are good reas= ons for not making one of the few irregular and irritating points of a beau= tiful language reflect the rest of it, please tell me so.

re'isai mi= 'e lorxus

=

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