Received: from mail-fa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.161.62]:41381) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VuKdW-0005Iu-2R for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:33 -0800 Received: by mail-fa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id v1sf247433fav.7 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zYm1emDsD11hmMY7KZ7WGbyjkWSmlxg9q4LdfqA1dLc=; b=tYT1b0m38Bhg8iDk7oN1Bn1t3W0iW8r4irI3XbhNRdpfz8HsEkgTYgGMyit6pfbHpm jSmU9mGrGwiDkohIcHyXmNFdjWVBBi02QPzN1uGHCp4LcvaZlqcvU/fpg2Ch99sn+HQ+ BGWHQKXHSj1JRseD3yJF/zKbRolkTxyxJQ6aQn7CX7moytiZt5M9gDsXSg10dhpaxT4x KibeXyDYBVHEfQjca5GVMmawkQi4gh9smAF9xb6K1PJmm6aTE8olqL0R5h3YQNu/rfqh V+IyVVwnC8yNNU+KeKPmnFmSGbqTqhkXZpHkOZITMkz2ObAnVhWQBTNeXzfz3MZ7zlvV QYBw== X-Received: by 10.180.73.180 with SMTP id m20mr87681wiv.21.1387624938540; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.39.108 with SMTP id o12ls537245wik.43.gmail; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.92.226 with SMTP id cp2mr6917577wib.6.1387624938012; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bc8si799765wib.1.2013.12.21.03.22.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::234; Received: by mail-wg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id x13so3459413wgg.7 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.20.100 with SMTP id m4mr10363778wie.32.1387624937881; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.60.78 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 03:22:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 15:22:17 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "salty" From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53f2e2d8108a004ee099bf6 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec53f2e2d8108a004ee099bf6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Earlier i invented {krumami}. gismu would make the word unrecognisable. https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/0rtjEXWTdVM/discussion The new algorithm: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/QdZb0Cg2RhI/discussion According to that algorithm ISO-code - lojbanisation - frequency cmn siani 0.246117399315609 eng salti 0.213872071597789 spa salado 0.094630165833114 ara malix 0.090023690444854 hin namkin 0.084890760726507 ben nonta 0.05672545406686 rus salion 0.051855751513556 por salgado 0.048828639115557 jap ciokarai 0.03224532771782 pun saluni 0.028691760989734 deu saltsig 0.027375625164517 fra sali 0.024743353514083 Whenever several translations were possible i tried to use those that could raise the overall rating. E.g. i chose "saluni" in Pujnajbi cuz it's similar to other languages. If we try to use synonyms in Hindi and Bengali we get: cmn siani 0.246117399315609 eng salti 0.213872071597789 spa salado 0.094630165833114 ara malix 0.090023690444854 hin lavanaiukt 0.084890760726507 ben labanakt 0.05672545406686 rus salion 0.051855751513556 por salgado 0.048828639115557 jap ciokarai 0.03224532771782 pun saluni 0.028691760989734 deu saltsig 0.027375625164517 fra sali 0.024743353514083 Now we have a problem. It would allow us {salni} if we hadn't already {sarni} for triangle. This possible conflict is described in http://dag.github.io/cll/4/14/ A quite reasonable rule I'd say. It's a pity it's not used when creating lujvo with short rafsi. So I suggest removing {sarni}. It won't make {salni} a winner but at least would let it in. On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Paul Rapoport wrote: > Also, I'd assumed that a basic taste like umami would need a gismu as well. > > > On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Paul Rapoport wrote: > >> You mean the letter-counting one? I thought I had. Those are the numbers >> in parentheses in the previous email. I thought it only cared about those 6 >> languages though. >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I mean did you run the algorithm counting ratings of generated gismu? >>> >>> http://dag.github.io/cll/4/14/ >>> >>> Mandarin: "siani" ("x" in pinyin is rather "si" than "c") >>> Hindi: "namakin" >>> Urdu: "namakin" >>> Spanish: "salado" >>> English:"salti" >>> Arabic: "malix" >>> Russian: "sylion" >>> Portuguese: "salgado" >>> French "sali" >>> German: "saltsig" >>> Japanese: "copai" / "ciokarai" >>> Bengali: ??? >>> Punjabi: ??? >>> Javanese: ??? >>> Wu: ??? >>> Marathi: ??? >>> Telugu: ??? >>> Vietnamese: ??? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Paul Rapoport < >>> coronacoreanici@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> It seems OK to me. I'm not sure what you mean. What do you mean by >>>> standard algorithm? >>>> E: salti (4) >>>> C: cian (2) >>>> S: salado (3) >>>> R: solenyy (3) >>>> H: namakina (2) >>>> A: malx (2) >>>> >>>> As for definition: salty seems sufficient for an English definition, >>>> because that refers to table salt/sea salt/cooking salt. A "perfect >>>> example" of NaCl (ctisilna vrusi) would definitely work. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 2:52 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> lorxus added to jbovlaste >>>>> salni = x1 is salty/briny to observer x2. >>>>> >>>>> See also silna, xamsi, titla, slari, kurki. This word is oddly >>>>> missing; note that silna can mean sweet lead acetate, sour sodium citrate, >>>>> bitter magnesium sulfate, or umami (which also needs a word!) sodium >>>>> glutamate, so "silna vrusi" is almost meaningless. >>>>> >>>>> Is everything okay to you? I mean may be we should have used the >>>>> standard algorithm? >>>>> What is the etymology of this word? >>>>> Russian:"solion" >>>>> English:"solti" >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> Besides, I suggested that we used a taste prototype for it, namely >>>>> NaCl and/or KCl. >>>>> >>>>> For now I can't accept neither sounding nor definition. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --bcaec53f2e2d8108a004ee099bf6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Earlier i invented {krumami}. gismu would make the word un= recognisable.=A0https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/0rtjEXWTdVM/discu= ssion


According to that al= gorithm
ISO-code - lojbanisation - frequency
cmn siani 0.246117399315609
eng salti 0.213872071597789
spa salado 0.094630165833114
ara malix 0.090023690444854
hin namkin 0.084890760726507
ben nonta 0.05672545406686
rus salion 0.051855751513556
por salgado 0.048828639115557
jap ciokarai 0.03224532771782
pun saluni 0.028691760989734
deu saltsig 0.027375625164517
fra sali 0.024743353514083

Whenever several translations were possible i tri= ed to use those that could raise the overall rating. E.g. i chose "sal= uni" in Pujnajbi cuz it's similar to other languages.

If we try to use synonyms in Hindi and Bengali we get:

cmn= siani 0.246117399= 315609
eng salti 0.213872071597789
spa salado 0.094630165833114
ara malix 0.090023690444854
hin lavanaiukt 0.084890760726507
ben labanakt 0.05672545406686
rus salion 0.051855751513556
por salgado 0.048828639115557
jap ciokarai 0.03224532771782
pun saluni 0.028691760989734
deu saltsig 0.027375625164517
fra sali 0.024743353514083
<= br>

Now we have a problem. It would all= ow us {salni} if we hadn't already {sarni} for triangle. This possible = conflict is described in=A0http:= //dag.github.io/cll/4/14/
A quite reasonable rule I'd say. It's a pity it's no= t used when creating lujvo with short rafsi.

So I = suggest removing {sarni}. It won't make {salni} a winner but at least w= ould let it in.



On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Paul Rapoport &l= t;coronacore= anici@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, I'd assumed that = a basic taste like umami would need a gismu as well.


On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Paul Rapoport <<= a href=3D"mailto:coronacoreanici@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">coronacoreani= ci@gmail.com> wrote:
You mean the letter-countin= g one? I thought I had. Those are the numbers in parentheses in the previou= s email. I thought it only cared about those 6 languages though.


On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
I mean did you run the algorithm counting ratings of gener= ated gismu?

http://dag.github.io/cll/4/14/

=
Mandarin: "siani" ("x" in pinyin is rather "si&quo= t; than "c")
Hindi: "namakin"
Urdu: "namakin"
Spanish: "salado"
English:"salti"
Arabic: "malix"
Russian: "sylion"
Portuguese: "salgado"
French "sali"
German: "saltsig"
Japanese: "copai" / &= quot;ciokarai"
Bengali: ???
Punjabi: ???
Javanese: ???
Wu: ???
Marathi: ???
Telug= u: ???
Vietnamese: ???


On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 12:2= 9 PM, Paul Rapoport <coronacoreanici@gmail.com> wrot= e:
It seems OK to me. I'm not sure what you mean. What do you mean= by standard algorithm?
E: salti (4)
C: cian (2)
S: salado (3)
R: = solenyy (3)
H: namakina (2)
A: malx (2)

As for definition: = salty seems sufficient for an English definition, because that refers to ta= ble salt/sea salt/cooking salt. A "perfect example" of NaCl (ctis= ilna vrusi) would definitely work.


On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 2:52 AM, Gleki Arxo= kuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
lorxu= s added to jbovlaste
salni =A0=3D x1 is salty/briny to observer x2.

See also silna, xamsi, titla, slari, kurki. This w= ord is oddly missing; note that silna can mean sweet lead acetate, sour sod= ium citrate, bitter magnesium sulfate, or umami (which also needs a word!) = sodium glutamate, so "silna vrusi" is almost meaningless.

Is everything okay to you? I mean may= be we should have used the standard algorithm?
What is the etymo= logy of this word?
Russian:"solion"
English:&= quot;solti"
etc.

Besides, I suggested that we used a tast= e prototype for it, namely NaCl and/or KCl.

For no= w I can't accept neither sounding nor definition.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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<= span>

--
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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--bcaec53f2e2d8108a004ee099bf6--