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Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:10:10 -0800 (PST)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] completely off-topic
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This seems to say that the name of a letter can not be used to refer to the=
 letter but that such a reference requires longer expression. =A0This is in=
herently implausible, since a name is, by definition, used to refer to the =
thing named. =A0That it may also be used for other things does not obviate =
this primary function; it just means you have to be careful. =A0The written=
 form is particularly tricky, since the theory seems

to be that the letter can be anaphoric, not the name of the letter, though =
the conventions do not distinguish well under the isomorphism.

________________________________
 From: iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] completely off-topic
=20


Le dimanche 22 d=E9cembre 2013 22:49:13 UTC+1, aionys a =E9crit=A0:

>
>As I said, I'm not talking about pro-sumti.
>

I think bare letteral {denpa bu} acts as a pro-sumti. That's why I fail to =
understand your sentence the way I believe it is meant to be understood.

>The Dot Side doesn't refer to using letterals as pro-sumti, as in the=20
{by.} in {la.benjis. gerku .i by. barda}. It refers to
>the practice of=20
leading cmevla with a "." so that the letteral groups "la", "lai", and "doi=
" can be used in them. (As for
>example {la.doitcland.} or {la.las,andjeles.}).

I understand that. But Dot Side doesn't change the way bare letterals are i=
nterpreted as anaphora. The weird thing about {denpa bu} as an anaphora is =
that it is unlikely to be used as such, since the words it could possibly r=
efer to can't start with denpa bu. (Although, technically, they can, since =
every 'vowel-initial' word starts with {.V=85}, but the canonical anaphora =
is of course {.V bu}, not {denpa bu}. Which makes sense.)

I think that {me'o denpa bu} is the way to say 'dot' (in the lerfu sense), =
cf. <http://dag.github.io/cll/17/10/>. But I'll be happy to be corrected, I=
 tend to not get the subtleties.

(By the way, {lasandjeles} is not a well-formed word, even under Dot Side; =
{ndj} is not a valid cluster.)

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 12pt;">This seems to say that the name of a letter can not be use=
d to refer to the letter but that such a reference requires longer expressi=
on. &nbsp;This is inherently implausible, since a name is, by definition, u=
sed to refer to the thing named. &nbsp;That it may also be used for other t=
hings does not obviate this primary function; it just means you have to be =
careful. &nbsp;The written form is particularly tricky, since the theory se=
ems</span><br></div><div>to be that the letter can be anaphoric, not the na=
me of the letter, though the conventions do not distinguish well under the =
isomorphism.</div>  <div style=3D"font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york=
', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: 'times new r=
oman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr
 size=3D"1">  <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"font-weigh=
t:bold;">From:</span></b> iesk &lt;pa.fae@gmx.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:07 =
PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojba=
n] completely off-topic<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><=
br>
<div id=3D"yiv541507755"><div dir=3D"ltr">Le dimanche 22 d=E9cembre 2013 22=
:49:13 UTC+1, aionys a =E9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"yiv541507755gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"yiv541507755gmail_quote"=
></div><br></div><div>As I said, I'm not talking about pro-sumti.<br clear=
=3D"all"></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I think bare letteral {denpa bu}=
 acts as a pro-sumti. That's why I fail to understand your sentence the way=
 I believe it is meant to be understood.<br><br>&gt;The Dot Side doesn't re=
fer to using letterals as pro-sumti, as in the=20
{by.} in {la.benjis. gerku .i by. barda}. It refers to<br>&gt;the practice =
of=20
leading cmevla with a "." so that the <b>letteral</b> groups "la", "lai", a=
nd "doi" can be used in them. (As for<br>&gt;example {la.doitcland.} or {la=
.las,andjeles.}).<br><br>I understand that. But Dot Side doesn't change the=
 way bare letterals are interpreted as anaphora. The weird thing about {den=
pa bu} as an anaphora is that it is unlikely to be used as such, since the =
words it could possibly refer to can't start with denpa bu. (Although, tech=
nically, they can, since every 'vowel-initial' word starts with {.V=85}, bu=
t the canonical anaphora is of course {.V bu}, not {denpa bu}. Which makes =
sense.)<br><br>I think that {me'o denpa bu} is the way to say 'dot' (in the=
 lerfu sense), cf. &lt;http://dag.github.io/cll/17/10/&gt;. But I'll be hap=
py to be corrected, I tend to not get the subtleties.<br><br><font size=3D"=
1">(By the way, {lasandjeles} is not a well-formed word, even under Dot Sid=
e; {ndj} is not a valid cluster.)</font><br></div></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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