Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <60e6003b-c08e-44e6-8eff-c8dd7c30d447@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAO7bV+g+7Tpfr1pFA1eTmbuH-z=Wjihd7y-VNU4iMFaK9N9F_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+4hugsxBLxNMQrCL7XtSrXjDRRnxJAbs44o_XWfqad832seFw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7bV+gWRRxkxFqC1LBK2qkpvZET2Ss=OR=0utcmAgn=QAkYhg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+4hugtXZe=gwgsTHTqQVXiH8sD-LoQ7hJx-iUgA9-JUWibhbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+4hugvffhZFeUfgdfLN_MEquWpavojFUvK6Sqjw6qAbwFH6ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7bV+gvhUzJRrT06bdc8un+CMErzb_v16q36ZE6drUahXVsLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<6c574e80-490a-49fc-9993-b063ae4430c7@googlegroups.com>
	<CAO7bV+jDZLMU2W1nrPxVrHcx73snwuWGvcS9R5pQ7Gh6gy9iQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<520032ce-f5db-497b-87bb-c151a5496902@googlegroups.com>
	<CAMKwHj3Tja=7_otk+k4q2DL8zj_-9oRyBNdBt6hgmjsPby=g3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe8cded7-542e-4580-9266-54356507ba6f@googlegroups.com>
	<CAMKwHj0Dwa4xPN=z0ffUVs=1C8ffvfyOrhwxGvv2Fi1qPLEH5A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALMa68o7g89UxCiAcDGK8ZSZuhTEkXxAoPuXeHkP+e2=ztKiJg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj1=G-tnxXbvpFz41YFwFxhEUzAGiQpX3mx_5YQ2guoXwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<60e6003b-c08e-44e6-8eff-c8dd7c30d447@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:31:06 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj20cQeyXuzgPU4fraLsfuEaHy=OyXZuUSb1muLTL1NwLw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] completely off-topic
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1fdf67fdda804ee2a6bd1
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--001a11c1fdf67fdda804ee2a6bd1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In my understanding, in order for any letteral to be used as a pro-sumti,
the referent has to be used in full first.

In other words, {gy.} doesn't automagically refer to a dog unless {lo
gerku} has been uttered in the conversation.

Coupling that with the fact I don't think anyone had ever referred to
something with anything other than a letter ({la.alis.} -> {.abu}, not
{denpa bu}), and I'd say that {me'o} is just an extra two unnecessary
syllables.
On Dec 22, 2013 4:07 PM, "iesk" <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:

> Le dimanche 22 d=E9cembre 2013 22:49:13 UTC+1, aionys a =E9crit :
>>
>>
>> As I said, I'm not talking about pro-sumti.
>>
>
> I think bare letteral {denpa bu} acts as a pro-sumti. That's why I fail t=
o
> understand your sentence the way I believe it is meant to be understood.
>
> >The Dot Side doesn't refer to using letterals as pro-sumti, as in the
> {by.} in {la.benjis. gerku .i by. barda}. It refers to
> >the practice of leading cmevla with a "." so that the *letteral* groups
> "la", "lai", and "doi" can be used in them. (As for
> >example {la.doitcland.} or {la.las,andjeles.}).
>
> I understand that. But Dot Side doesn't change the way bare letterals are
> interpreted as anaphora. The weird thing about {denpa bu} as an anaphora =
is
> that it is unlikely to be used as such, since the words it could possibly
> refer to can't start with denpa bu. (Although, technically, they can, sin=
ce
> every 'vowel-initial' word starts with {.V=85}, but the canonical anaphor=
a is
> of course {.V bu}, not {denpa bu}. Which makes sense.)
>
> I think that {me'o denpa bu} is the way to say 'dot' (in the lerfu sense)=
,
> cf. <http://dag.github.io/cll/17/10/>. But I'll be happy to be corrected,
> I tend to not get the subtleties.
>
> (By the way, {lasandjeles} is not a well-formed word, even under Dot Side=
;
> {ndj} is not a valid cluster.)
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--001a11c1fdf67fdda804ee2a6bd1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">In my understanding, in order for any letteral to be used as=
 a pro-sumti, the referent has to be used in full first.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In other words, {gy.} doesn&#39;t automagically refer to a d=
og unless {lo gerku} has been uttered in the conversation.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Coupling that with the fact I don&#39;t think anyone had eve=
r referred to something with anything other than a letter ({la.alis.} -&gt;=
 {.abu}, not {denpa bu}), and I&#39;d say that {me&#39;o} is just an extra =
two unnecessary syllables.</p>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Dec 22, 2013 4:07 PM, &quot;iesk&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:pa.fae@gmx.de">pa.fae@gmx.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attr=
ibution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Le dimanche 22 d=E9cembre 2013 22:49:13 UTC+1, aionys a =
=E9crit=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">
</div><br></div><div>As I said, I&#39;m not talking about pro-sumti.<br cle=
ar=3D"all"></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I think bare letteral {denpa b=
u} acts as a pro-sumti. That&#39;s why I fail to understand your sentence t=
he way I believe it is meant to be understood.<br>
<br>&gt;The Dot Side doesn&#39;t refer to using letterals as pro-sumti, as =
in the=20
{by.} in {la.benjis. gerku .i by. barda}. It refers to<br>&gt;the practice =
of=20
leading cmevla with a &quot;.&quot; so that the <b>letteral</b> groups &quo=
t;la&quot;, &quot;lai&quot;, and &quot;doi&quot; can be used in them. (As f=
or<br>&gt;example {la.doitcland.} or {la.las,andjeles.}).<br><br>I understa=
nd that. But Dot Side doesn&#39;t change the way bare letterals are interpr=
eted as anaphora. The weird thing about {denpa bu} as an anaphora is that i=
t is unlikely to be used as such, since the words it could possibly refer t=
o can&#39;t start with denpa bu. (Although, technically, they can, since ev=
ery &#39;vowel-initial&#39; word starts with {.V=85}, but the canonical ana=
phora is of course {.V bu}, not {denpa bu}. Which makes sense.)<br>
<br>I think that {me&#39;o denpa bu} is the way to say &#39;dot&#39; (in th=
e lerfu sense), cf. &lt;<a href=3D"http://dag.github.io/cll/17/10/" target=
=3D"_blank">http://dag.github.io/cll/17/10/</a>&gt;. But I&#39;ll be happy =
to be corrected, I tend to not get the subtleties.<br>
<br><font size=3D"1">(By the way, {lasandjeles} is not a well-formed word, =
even under Dot Side; {ndj} is not a valid cluster.)</font><br></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />

--001a11c1fdf67fdda804ee2a6bd1--