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Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:46:19 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkTsYGjEq9sWkOBdq7w5+wt71MoOY46ZeiQFbp6M76p0eA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Alice essay
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
  [Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis:]

> > Similarly, the existence of many lujvo not defined in the dictionary
> > suggests a need on dictionary work, not a problem with the text,
> > which, putting the word to real usage, is already a precious
> > contribution. It is exciting that we have the opportunity to
> > collaborate with the author and document the definitions for the new
> > words, resolving its details.
> I think it would be better to first write the definition of a new word
> and then to use it. If you don=92t want a definition, you can fall back
> to tanru or =93za'e=94. If you do it the other way round, like you sugges=
t
> now, there is a risk of creating multiple definitions for the same
> lujvo, which would go against the purpose of lujvo.
> That=92s just my position in brief. I have written it in detail to a
> response to gleki.
> I take it back to call it a =93mistake=94 outright but call it =93bad
> practice=94 instead.


  I'm glad you changed your mind on calling it a "mistake".  I agree with
you that people ought to write definitions in jbovlaste when they create
some new lujvo coinages (that are intended for more than nonce usage (and
much more strongly so for fu'ivla/zi'evla (which reminds me: Pierre, add
your definition of "klamburi"!!))), but it certainly isn't the way that
most dictionaries of natural languages work.  Someone uses a word in a
medium, and, if necessary, defines it.  And eventually, with enough usage,
dictionaries pick it up and include it.  But words that are derived from
existing words or morphemes with an obvious use in context (one recent
example from the newspaper -- "teflonification") do not need to be so
defined or marked.  And pretty much every lujvo should be in that category.
 Do you expect an advertiser who claims his new laundry detergent to be
"cleanerrific" to put an asterisk there and say "*'cleanerrific', a term
not found in dictionaries and coined by the Brand X company, is used to
imply that their product cleans terrifically"?  I hope not.

  That being said, the danger of using a lujvo (especially in  the x3+
places) inconsistently, with uncommon constructions (i.e. not "-tce",
"-rai" "-gau", "-bi'o", "-tci", "tol-" "nun-", etc families) is certainly a
valid concern.

 </soapbox>
                       --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 5:04 AM, Wuzzy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">almikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
=A0 [<span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Felipe Gon=
=E7alves Assis:]</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">&gt; Similarly, the existence of many lujvo not defined i=
n the dictionary<br>
&gt; suggests a need on dictionary work, not a problem with the text,<br>
&gt; which, putting the word to real usage, is already a precious<br>
&gt; contribution. It is exciting that we have the opportunity to<br>
&gt; collaborate with the author and document the definitions for the new<b=
r>
&gt; words, resolving its details.<br>
</div>I think it would be better to first write the definition of a new wor=
d<br>
and then to use it. If you don=92t want a definition, you can fall back<br>
to tanru or =93za&#39;e=94. If you do it the other way round, like you sugg=
est<br>
now, there is a risk of creating multiple definitions for the same<br>
lujvo, which would go against the purpose of lujvo.<br>
That=92s just my position in brief. I have written it in detail to a<br>
response to gleki.<br>
I take it back to call it a =93mistake=94 outright but call it =93bad<br>
practice=94 instead.</blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div=
>=A0 I&#39;m glad you changed your mind on calling it a &quot;mistake&quot;=
. =A0I agree with you that people ought to write definitions in jbovlaste w=
hen they create some new lujvo coinages=A0(that are intended for more than =
nonce usage=A0(and much more strongly so for fu&#39;ivla/zi&#39;evla (which=
 reminds me: Pierre, add your definition of &quot;klamburi&quot;!!))), but =
it certainly isn&#39;t the way that most dictionaries of natural languages =
work. =A0Someone uses a word in a medium, and, if necessary, defines it. =
=A0And eventually, with enough usage, dictionaries pick it up and include i=
t. =A0But words that are derived from existing words or morphemes with an o=
bvious use in context (one recent example from the newspaper -- &quot;teflo=
nification&quot;) do not need to be so defined or marked. =A0And pretty muc=
h every lujvo should be in that category. =A0Do you expect an advertiser wh=
o claims his new laundry detergent to be &quot;cleanerrific&quot; to put an=
 asterisk there and say &quot;*&#39;cleanerrific&#39;, a term not found in =
dictionaries and coined by the Brand X company, is used to imply that their=
 product cleans terrifically&quot;? =A0I hope not.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=A0 That be=
ing said, the danger of using a lujvo (especially in =A0the x3+ places) inc=
onsistently, with uncommon constructions (i.e. not &quot;-tce&quot;, &quot;=
-rai&quot; &quot;-gau&quot;, &quot;-bi&#39;o&quot;, &quot;-tci&quot;, &quot=
;tol-&quot; &quot;nun-&quot;, etc families) is certainly a valid concern.</=
div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=A0&lt;/soa=
pbox&gt;</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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