Received: from mail-ob0-f187.google.com ([209.85.214.187]:60466) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1VzrED-0005fL-5G for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:37 -0800 Received: by mail-ob0-f187.google.com with SMTP id wo20sf4049799obc.4 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3N2cGn1VPch708hFKkppyE0Es6fygTEP5c/RkKABa4s=; b=dZxuiZElC8igg45S/qNaPoJpMP8N0kdIz9y02gqVrjMZJVmtUu+p79RFuFPFSFD7S4 5nG05HJLleezLtHodcIBL/bKaYcND99qHkQJOagUkVrMLZicoss2ZdfpsNeRNG5SAYMT hF1dO1p5EAmemVNizFSgRwP4qlalxv1XQIU+khkMrMlsa8dJKKECuaadeXCUGdQF2l6m 3ria9UxG/YFFEoAebP7UuEw7cGL6Qny+e+CGedZFMNZzXBo7/UmWkHL8+TLMnrQt8+yk YPtyveg6cVD9hb8oV4AVgy1T6xxe/5Kei/LjhQox+qvPlnS6m760nI/Zm3cAxdyD6/XR YaRQ== X-Received: by 10.49.74.134 with SMTP id t6mr81249qev.14.1388941862678; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:02 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.81.229 with SMTP id d5ls5248904qey.64.gmail; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:02 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.58.171.135 with SMTP id au7mr43903311vec.22.1388941862288; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-x231.google.com (mail-pb0-x231.google.com [2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v64si2935464yhm.3.2014.01.05.09.11.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231; Received: by mail-pb0-f49.google.com with SMTP id jt11so17529197pbb.36 for ; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.68.172.65 with SMTP id ba1mr117436120pbc.18.1388941861212; Sun, 05 Jan 2014 09:11:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.70.137.237 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Jan 2014 09:10:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <52C880CB.9030601@gmx.de> From: ".arpis." Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 12:10:41 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {to'e ri'a} To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10cc8540588404ef3c3a6f X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b10cc8540588404ef3c3a6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {.i tugni la .aziz. ni'o mi ji'a jinvi lo du'u lu=ABto'e ri'a=BBli'u mu'a n= a smuske drani} I agree with {la .aziz.}. I'm one of those in the "{to'e ri'a} and friends are not well-formed" camp. On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis < felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote: > ki'e sai selpa'i > > That is very clear! Maybe it should be posted somewhere? > > mu'o > mi'e .asiz. > > > On 4 January 2014 18:44, selpa'i wrote: > >> la'o me. Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis .me cusku di'e >> >> I am confused. If the referent of the tagged sumti prevents the event >>> described by the bridi, which event is there for the main brid to refer >>> to? >>> >>> The page doesn't give examples. What would them be, if any? >>> >> >> Since this is a topic that should be of interest to almost anyone, I wil= l >> try to give a brief summary not only of {NAhE + BAI}, but also of how al= l >> the causation sumtcita work, and how they interact with NAhE and NAI, si= nce >> all this should be common knowledge (afterall it's needed on a daily bas= is). >> >> The idea is that each of the {to'e + causation sumtcita} give a differen= t >> shade of {fanta}, "to prevent". >> >> For example, {to'e ri'a} means the same as {to'e rinka}, just in sumtcit= a >> form, and adding {nai} to a sumtcita creates a contradictory negation (i= .e. >> {ri'a nai} -> {na rinka}). >> >> To begin with, using a causation sumtcita puts the tagged sumti into the >> x1, and the main bridi into the x2. Here is an example: >> >> (1a) mi lebna ki'u lo nu mi xagji mutce >> "I took it because I was so hungry." >> >> (1a) can be refactored as (1b). >> >> (1b) lo nu mi xagji mutce cu krinu lo nu [da'i nai] mi lebna >> "My being very hungry was the reason I took it." >> >> (you need to make sure that the events are still getting asserted, which >> I will ignore here for the sake of simplicity) >> >> This transformation is very basic, but it helps us to undestand the >> meaning of more complex sumtcita and their relationship to the main brid= i. >> It's possible to attach NAhE as well as NAI, as in (2a) and (3a). >> >> (2a) mi klama mu'i nai lo nu lo speni cu zvati >> "I didn't go because my wife was there." (but presumably for >> another reason)" >> >> {mu'i nai} does not mean "despite" (anymore). (2b) shows why (2a) means >> what it means now, using the same transformation as before: >> >> (2b) lo nu lo speni cu zvati cu na mukti lo nu mi klama >> "My wife being there was not the motivation for my going there." >> >> Next, (3a) shows an example of {to'e}+causative. >> >> (3a) ? mi farlu to'e ri'a lo nu do jgari lo mi xance >> "I fell, prevented by your holding my hand." >> >> Refactoring, we get (3b). >> >> (3b) lo nu do jgari lo mi xance cu to'e rinka lo nu mi farlu >> "You holding my hand prevented my from falling." >> >> In (3a), we have the slightly strange case of a sumtcita removing the >> assertion from the main bridi without any contradictory negation, which = is >> probably exactly what confused you. The strangeness disappears in (3b), >> because rinka2 is no longer asserted by default. >> >> We can either conclude that (3a) is not a well-formed statement, or that >> there exist certain sumtcita that can change the assertive force of the >> main bridi on their own. The former would make {to'e ri'a} rather useles= s, >> as you noticed; the latter would be slightly unusual (not completely >> unusual, cf. CAhA). >> >> In any case, while {to'e ri'a} itself might be of limited use, {to'e se >> ri'a} is still perfectly usable, as for example in (3c): >> >> (3c) do jgari lo mi xance to'e se ri'a lo nu mi farlu >> "You held my hand, thereby preventing me from falling." >> >> And once we add a {nai} to {to'e ri'a}, all is in order again, as shown >> by (4a-b). >> >> (4a) mi dunda fi do to'e mu'i nai lo nu do ta'e darxi >> "I will give it to you despite you always hitting me." >> >> And again, we can rewrite as (4b) to see how that meaning comes about. >> >> (4b) lo nu do ta'e darxi cu na to'e mukti lo nu mi dunda fi do >> "You always hitting me does not demotivate me from giving it to >> you." >> >> All the above works in exactly the same way with the other BAI that can >> integrate the main bridi as an argument of their base predicate, like {t= ai} >> and {du'i}, so it's very important to learn this well. Plus, it's a >> recurring theme in tense semantics, too. >> >> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .arpis. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b10cc8540588404ef3c3a6f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
{.i tugni la .aziz. ni'o mi ji'a jinvi l= o du'u lu=ABto'e ri'a=BBli'u mu'a na smuske drani}
<= br>
I agree with {la .aziz.}.

I'm one of those in the= "{to'e ri'a} and friends are not well-formed" camp.


On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.= assis@gmail.com> wrote:
ki'e sai selpa'i

That is very clear! Maybe it should= be posted somewhere?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 4 January 2014 18:44, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
la'o me. Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis .me cusku di'e

I am confused. If the referent of the tagged sumti prevents the event
described by the bridi, which event is there for the main brid to refer to?=

The page doesn't give examples. What would them be, if any?

Since this is a topic that should be of interest to almost anyone, I will t= ry to give a brief summary not only of {NAhE + BAI}, but also of how all th= e causation sumtcita work, and how they interact with NAhE and NAI, since a= ll this should be common knowledge (afterall it's needed on a daily bas= is).

The idea is that each of the {to'e + causation sumtcita} give a differe= nt shade of {fanta}, "to prevent".

For example, {to'e ri'a} means the same as {to'e rinka}, just i= n sumtcita form, and adding {nai} to a sumtcita creates a contradictory neg= ation (i.e. {ri'a nai} -> {na rinka}).

To begin with, using a causation sumtcita puts the tagged sumti into the x1= , and the main bridi into the x2. Here is an example:

=A0(1a) mi lebna ki'u lo nu mi xagji mutce
=A0 =A0 =A0 "I took it because I was so hungry."

(1a) can be refactored as (1b).

=A0(1b) lo nu mi xagji mutce cu krinu lo nu [da'i nai] mi lebna
=A0 =A0 =A0 "My being very hungry was the reason I took it."

(you need to make sure that the events are still getting asserted, which I = will ignore here for the sake of simplicity)

This transformation is very basic, but it helps us to undestand the meaning= of more complex sumtcita and their relationship to the main bridi. It'= s possible to attach NAhE as well as NAI, as in (2a) and (3a).

=A0(2a) mi klama mu'i nai lo nu lo speni cu zvati
=A0 =A0 =A0 "I didn't go because my wife was there." (but pre= sumably for another reason)"

{mu'i nai} does not mean "despite" (anymore). (2b) shows why = (2a) means what it means now, using the same transformation as before:

=A0(2b) lo nu lo speni cu zvati cu na mukti lo nu mi klama
=A0 =A0 =A0 "My wife being there was not the motivation for my going t= here."

Next, (3a) shows an example of {to'e}+causative.

=A0(3a) ? mi farlu to'e ri'a lo nu do jgari lo mi xance
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 "I fell, prevented by your holding my hand."

Refactoring, we get (3b).

=A0(3b) lo nu do jgari lo mi xance cu to'e rinka lo nu mi farlu
=A0 =A0 =A0 "You holding my hand prevented my from falling."

In (3a), we have the slightly strange case of a sumtcita removing the asser= tion from the main bridi without any contradictory negation, which is proba= bly exactly what confused you. The strangeness disappears in (3b), because = rinka2 is no longer asserted by default.

We can either conclude that (3a) is not a well-formed statement, or that th= ere exist certain sumtcita that can change the assertive force of the main = bridi on their own. The former would make {to'e ri'a} rather useles= s, as you noticed; the latter would be slightly unusual (not completely unu= sual, cf. CAhA).

In any case, while {to'e ri'a} itself might be of limited use, {to&= #39;e se ri'a} is still perfectly usable, as for example in (3c):

=A0(3c) do jgari lo mi xance to'e se ri'a lo nu mi farlu
=A0 =A0 =A0 "You held my hand, thereby preventing me from falling.&quo= t;

And once we add a {nai} to {to'e ri'a}, all is in order again, as s= hown by (4a-b).

=A0(4a) mi dunda fi do to'e mu'i nai lo nu do ta'e darxi
=A0 =A0 =A0 "I will give it to you despite you always hitting me."= ;

And again, we can rewrite as (4b) to see how that meaning comes about.

=A0(4b) lo nu do ta'e darxi cu na to'e mukti lo nu mi dunda fi do =A0 =A0 =A0 "You always hitting me does not demotivate me from giving = it to you."

All the above works in exactly the same way with the other BAI that can int= egrate the main bridi as an argument of their base predicate, like {tai} an= d {du'i}, so it's very important to learn this well. Plus, it's= a recurring theme in tense semantics, too.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

--
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--
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
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